• Café Life is the Colony's main hangout, watering hole and meeting point.

    This is a place where you'll meet and make writing friends, and indulge in stratospherically-elevated wit or barometrically low humour.

    Some Colonists pop in religiously every day before or after work. Others we see here less regularly, but all are equally welcome. Two important grounds rules…

    • Don't give offence
    • Don't take offence

    We now allow political discussion, but strongly suggest it takes place in the Steam Room, which is a private sub-forum within Café Life. It’s only accessible to Full Members.

    You can dismiss this notice by clicking the "x" box

Craft Chat An Absence of Speech Marks

Sedayne

Sedayne

Full Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2024
Location
Northwest UK
I seem to have read a few novels this year where the writers eschew speech marks for their dialogue. It's not a new fad - James Joyce did it a long time ago, and apparently Cormac McCarthy thinks if you write properly you shouldn't need to punctuate (I purposely omit the punctuation as I quote him).

Trespasses by Louise Kennedy and Girl, Woman, Other by Bernadine Evaristo both worked well for me in that I barely noticed the speech marks were missing. I loved these novels.

I'm currently reading Talking at Night by Claire Daverley, another book with no speech marks. Occasionally, I find myself stumbling to distinguish what is being said out loud or just observed. Which is a shame, because otherwise I am enjoying the book.

My own fiction is dialogue-heavy, and I've never considered ditching the speech marks. Maybe I could have a go with something else as an experiment, but I'm not sure I could pull it off (or if I would want to).

What is the opinion of Litopians on speech marks?
Have you written anything without them?
Do you have any favourite novels that don't use them?
 
Sort by date Sort by votes
I think we need to distinguish between thought and speech. I struggled with Charles Frazier's Cold Mountain, but then I didn't like his writing style, whilst very many do.... Who am I to judge...
 
Upvote 0
It's a tough call. When it works, it works. The problem is all the times it doesn't.
I think it does work when your characters have such different voices that it is immediatly clear who is talking and when. Bill bob Thornton's role in Slingblade, beginning his lines with Taters, for instance.
Wodehouse can get away with this because Jeeves is Jeeves, and Bertie is clearly Bertie (and the others are window dressing, unless it's about golf or pigs).
As for to " " or not to " " Do you notice quote marks when you read? I was taught readers don't really, they skim over them and the word said and just accept that a conversation is taking place.
 
Upvote 0
Sedayne said:
I think it's the noticing, or not noticing, that's key here. Whether it's the presence or absence, it's the noticing that jars.
Click to expand...
And the noticing or not comes down to the quality of the dialogue, doesn’t it. An engaged reader will forget the punctuation and listen to the dialogue. A not engaged one will feel themselves pulled out of the story and will notice quotes, etc
 
Upvote 0
Serra K said:
I dunno, I just read Faulkner's The Sound and the Fury and whether there was punctuation or not I can't remember
Click to expand...
One of the lines I have kept in my heart and head since reading it: I give you the mausoleum of all hope and desire… I give it to you not that may remember time, but that you might forget it now and then for a moment and not spend all your breath trying to conquer it.
 
Upvote 0
MattScho said:
One of the lines I have kept in my heart and head since reading it: I give you the mausoleum of all hope and desire… I give it to you not that may remember time, but that you might forget it now and then for a moment and not spend all your breath trying to conquer it.
Click to expand...
Oh Quentin's watch. Yeah that's a hell of a line.
 
Upvote 0
The problem with using Faulkner as a guide, his writing is 1. spectascular and 2. really difficult and 3. Not at all commercial, and perhaps anti-commercial. Same for a lot of Nobel winners. Them Swedes have a lot of dark days during which to ponder over sentences, apparently
 
Upvote 0
E G Logan said:
Sorry, but for me that line is not absolutely clear. What is the 'it'? Time? All hope and desire??
Does the context make it clearer?
Click to expand...
"It" is time.
And yes, context helps. I'm not sure those who have read the book can forget the context, but for those who have not (or managed to forget it), sorry if it was confusing.
 
Upvote 0
MattScho said:
And the noticing or not comes down to the quality of the dialogue, doesn’t it. An engaged reader will forget the punctuation and listen to the dialogue. A not engaged one will feel themselves pulled out of the story and will notice quotes, etc
Click to expand...

Late to this thread as have been on holiday and I'm just back.

But I think what Matt says here is right on the money. Roddy Doyle's novels don't use speech marks. But such is the quality of his dialogue I never once noticed until quite some time later. He uses a dash on a new line followed by the dialogue. As a reader I works perfectly for me.

I wrote my first book this way once I twigged it, but sadly not being a genius (like Doyle) it never saw the light of day.
 
Upvote 0
Serra K said:
Faulkner made me rethink everything. I think it would be wrong to only read it once.
Click to expand...
I've read The Great Gatsby three times, each time hoping for the moment when I see the genius everyone else seems to see. Always end up thinking, nope, lots of rich folk poncing about and nothing of significance happening.
I await everyone's cries of protests with baited breath.
 
Upvote 0
Terry Lowell said:
I've read The Great Gatsby three times, each time hoping for the moment when I see the genius everyone else seems to see. Always end up thinking, nope, lots of rich folk poncing about and nothing of significance happening.
I await everyone's cries of protests with baited breath.
Click to expand...
But Fitzgerald is very different from Faulkner. Faulkner can be annoyingly dense reading, but he really isn't anything like Gatsby...
 
Upvote 0
Robinne Weiss said:
No one will notice if you use speech marks. Some readers will notice (and be annoyed) if you don't use them. For me, that's reason enough to use them.
Click to expand...
To build on this, I think audience expectations also come into play.

As a reader, if I'm reading a literary novel, I go into it prepared that the author might play and experiement with language and grammar.

If I'm reading a fantasy, my expectations don't include being wowed by word study and grammar experimentation, so I'm way less likely to tollerate it. (Obviously, there are always going to be exceptions).

Therefore, as a writer, if I know my audience are readers of plot-driven fantasy, I'm not going to push the boundaries too much. Whereas, if I was writing something tailored to literary readers, I might be inclined to play with language and punctuation (or lack thereof) to challenge them a bit more.
 
Upvote 0
Okay so, why not use speech marks? I’m confused. What purpose does it serve to not use them? Is it just a way of showing off (or not) how clever (or not) the writer is? But to what purpose for the story? What does it add to the reader’s experience?

It’s funny because I think I’d find it really annoying if reading but in an audiobook of course you don’t have them pointed out, and I’m okay with it when listening. There are times I wonder in an audiobook if something was said or thought, and it trips me up but the narrator is off on the next thing so I just let it go. But reading, I would probably stop and be annoyed. Lol
 
Upvote 0
LJ Beck said:
Okay so, why not use speech marks? I’m confused. What purpose does it serve to not use them? Is it just a way of showing off (or not) how clever (or not) the writer is? But to what purpose for the story? What does it add to the reader’s experience?

It’s funny because I think I’d find it really annoying if reading but in an audiobook of course you don’t have them pointed out, and I’m okay with it when listening. There are times I wonder in an audiobook if something was said or thought, and it trips me up but the narrator is off on the next thing so I just let it go. But reading, I would probably stop and be annoyed. Lol
Click to expand...
I hadn't thought about audio, but yes, it makes no difference how the writer conveys dialogue as long as the narrator is up to the task. The narrator can influence my choice of audiobook as much as the author sometimes.
 
Upvote 0
Jonny said:
Late to this thread as have been on holiday and I'm just back.

But I think what Matt says here is right on the money. Roddy Doyle's novels don't use speech marks. But such is the quality of his dialogue I never once noticed until quite some time later. He uses a dash on a new line followed by the dialogue. As a reader I works perfectly for me.

I wrote my first book this way once I twigged it, but sadly not being a genius (like Doyle) it never saw the light of day.
Click to expand...
Jonny you have me looking for Doyles books in every 2nd hand shop I go into. Someday I'll find the stash, but they must be so beloved no one ever lets go of them.
 
Upvote 0
Sedayne said:
I hadn't thought about audio, but yes, it makes no difference how the writer conveys dialogue as long as the narrator is up to the task. The narrator can influence my choice of audiobook as much as the author sometimes.
Click to expand...
Absolutely. The Emotional Craft of Fiction for example I had to buy in paperback because the narrator was so damn actorly I couldn't get any of the meaning. The worst is when authors read their own books. I have learned that is a TERRIBLE cost cutting measure.
 
Upvote 0
Pamela Jo said:
Absolutely. The Emotional Craft of Fiction for example I had to buy in paperback because the narrator was so damn actorly I couldn't get any of the meaning. The worst is when authors read their own books. I have learned that is a TERRIBLE cost cutting measure.
Click to expand...
That depends. Marian Keyes narrating her own audiobook I'd say is worth listening to.
 
Upvote 0
Hannah F said:
That depends. Marian Keyes narrating her own audiobook I'd say is worth listening to.
Click to expand...
I tend to agree with PJ. But your exception proves the rule.
Off the top of my head, the only author-narrated book I recall really enjoying was Ian McEwan reading On Chesil Beach.
 
Upvote 0
Sedayne said:
I tend to agree with PJ. But your exception proves the rule.
Off the top of my head, the only author-narrated book I recall really enjoying was Ian McEwan reading On Chesil Beach.
Click to expand...
The orinal HHGTTU which Adams narrated was the standard setter, IMO. But he wasn't an author who did narration, he was a radio guy who wrote a book then read it
 
Upvote 0
Hannah F said:
Open Mic events have the same problem. Sometimes, you get an awesome narration. Most of the time, you get an author mumbling in a near impossible to decipher (according to my ears) almost monotone.
Click to expand...
Which is a shame, because a good reading can sell some books, create some interest. but a bad, unprofessional reading, can kill it.
On the other hand, we might be getting off topic
 
Upvote 0
You must log in or register to reply here.

Café Life Tag Cloud

advice agent author authors book books calls for submissions character christmas competition conferences contests creative writing critique editing fantasy fear fiction genre greetings huddle inspiration life literature litopia new member new writer novel novels philosophy poetry publishing questions reading romance science fiction self-publishing short stories short story story submissions twitter vanity words world writer writers writing writing contests zodiac
Back
Top