Amazon*!#*

[georginaK]

I was recently informed that Amazon gets 55% of the cut whenever they sell one of your books—shameful! That means between you and your publisher/agent, you get just pennies. And let’s face it, how many of us will end up on the bestseller list?! How can this algorithm sustain itself? How do authors support themselves off their writing? So Jeff Bezos is the richest man in the world and artists have to work multiple jobs to pay their bills. And squeeze in the time to write because they can’t not write—it’s what we do. @AgentPete says the publishing industry will never be the same again—I hope that reinvention swings in the writers’ favor this time. Thoughts/insights fellow writers and @AgentPete ?

 

[KateESal]

55%?? Blimey, I had no idea it was so huge.

If you're right, that's horrendously unfair.

 

[AgentPete]

National and supra-national legislation. It's the only way. The US, in particular, has a decent track record of breaking up monopolies once they start acting against the public interest. Time to lobby.

 

[georginaK]

National and supra-national legislation. It's the only way. The US, in particular, has a decent track record of breaking up monopolies once they start acting against the public interest. Time to lobby.

But is paying authors in the public interest? Readers get to buy ebooks for 99cents from Amazon. People like getting cheap books (it’s a tiny percentage who suffers—the authors).

 

[AgentPete]

Amazon actually argued that case, successfully, in court a few years ago, when a bunch of publishers – and Apple – conspired against Amazon… and ended up giving them the whole darn ebook market. And getting fined a ton of cash, too.

I would go after them on distribution, not pricing, grounds. They monopolize ebook distribution. You have no choice but to use Amazon currently if you’re a publisher. Attack that, gain access to their api, declare them to be a common carrier and toss them a few percent, same as the credit cards companies take for processing. That would do it.

 

[Barbara]

You have no choice but to use Amazon currently if you’re a publisher.

I'm curious why that is? Why are they tied to Amazon? Because of consumer buying habbits? Presumably there's a reason publishers can't simply boycott Amazon and only sell ebooks via different 'shops'? I'm just thinking: if they don't already, wouldn't publishers be better off hiring a couple of clever techies, put them in charge of producing the ebooks and set up an ebook shop directly via their own websites? Or would they not sell as many that way? (I know, I know, I'm quite clearly emerging from life inside a cave where writing consisted of the drawing of mamoths.)

 

[CageSage]

The number above doesn't sound right.
This is what I found (US site):
eBook Royalty Options
You can choose between two royalty options for each of your eBooks: the 35% royalty option and the 70% royalty option.
There's more on eBook Royalty Options.
-- Amazon is a market place, and the highest volume of eBooks sales is through their platform.

And this makes it more clear (except you can't price a book at less than 0.99, except by *selling your soul* and *hanging from monkey-bars*):

The royalty rate you get paid from Amazon for eBooks is 70% of the retail price if the price of your eBook is between $2.99 and $9.99. If your book is priced between $0.01 and $2.98 or greater than $9.99, you get paid 35% royalties. Thus, most self-published authors prefer to price their eBooks between $2.99 and $9.99 on Amazon to receive a higher share of royalties. (from How Self-Published Authors Get Paid for Ebook Sales | TCK Publishing).

I am self-published, so choose to be in the 70% royalty option for some, and the 35% option for others (higher read-rate). I don't have any books over 9.99, and I don't have books with costs for transmission (usually involves pictures, but sometimes publishers upload documents with too much formatting, or the same formatting as the pb, which effectively multiplies the 'weight' of the finished product thereby invoking transmission costs). I also use one of two aggregators, rather than setting up publisher profiles on all the platforms (I use Smashwords & D2D, and currently trialing Google. D2D is only because they have a link to sell on Amazon [The 'zon doesn't recognise my bank]). Amazon has the most subscribers/buyers (I'm only referring to books). Using Amazon to sell books is making use of the highest volumes sales platform.

I think your publisher isn't playing it completely straight. Amazon may be paying the 70% and then the publisher is taking their percentage (25% -- I thought it would be 15% for publishers; check your contract) from the full price. Your book was in 70% price category ($7.20 in Australia today, $4.99 USD).

I don't publish exclusively to Amazon (not my biggest sales platform), but they have the reach to new readers so they can't be dismissed out of hand. Kobo is now creating a Kobo Plus to copy the structure of Amazon Books (for subscription readers, haven't checked the exclusivity criteria yet).

However, my comments don't include pb published through their platform. I use Ingram Sparks, despite the rigmarole (better reach, and) because the discounts are ones I can set, not the marketers/platforms (unless they are cutting into their own take).

It's worth checking. A lot of authors get annoyed by the lack of information/facts from their publishers and end up going indie if they find obfuscation and other forms of BS.

 

[Paul Whybrow]

My experience of self-publishing since 2013 is similar to that of @CageSage. I was with Smashwords for many years, which taught me a lot about formatting an eBook and marketing it. I tried D2D for a few months, before transferring everything to Amazon KDP, choosing the Select option which gives them exclusive rights. It took a while to take down all my books from other sites.

I resisted Amazon KDP because I disliked their dictatorial terms and conditions. I'm opposed to monopolies, as there's little effective legislation to control them. Governments kowtow to billionaires—they serve corporations, not their voters—look at the situation with tax. People who work for monopolies, including writers, end up with the status of slaves. Nevertheless, if you're going hunting, you have to be in a place where the prey is...and, readers know about Amazon and hang out there.

It's absurd and unfair that authors get paid so little, but it's similar to other industries such as farming, where producers of meat, milk and wool operate on tiny margins and even losses. Writers are consumers too, so if you enjoy buying cheap books (or milk) it's hypocritical to complain that you're not getting paid enough for your carefully-written novel.

When thinking about how much I've earnt from my books things become absurd. If I devoted 1,000 hours to researching, writing and editing an 80,000 word novel and it's brought me $38 in the last year, that's an hourly income of 0.038 cents! J.K. Rowling I'm not....

However, after seven dispiriting years of querying 875 literary agents, I now feel more in control of my writing career. Amazon offers more opportunity with different ways of getting my work in front of readers...eBooks, a lending library, POD paperbacks and audiobooks. Their support staff give brilliant service, always getting back to me within 24 hours.

It's not foolproof, but nothing is in publishing. Being an Indie offers me freedom and flexibility and I control how I market my books. It's bloody hard work, but don't go fooling yourself by thinking that if you get a traditional book deal that your agent and publisher will do all the razzmatazz publicity for you. They'll do some, but most of the onus of getting yourself known remains on your shoulders—where's your website, how active is your social media presence and how many festivals are you appearing at as a guest speaker?

Note, I am not defending Amazon's greed. They shouldn't be paying their authors breadcrumbs...a nice cream bun level of income would be better!

 

[Steve C]

There's no reason why you shouldn't pocket 70% of the Amazon price as Paul just said. The average for a traditionally published book - the writer get's 8-10% of the price. There's an interesting article here

Publishers are paying writers a pittance, say bestselling authors

Philip Pullman, Antony Beevor and Sally Gardner call for fairer share of profits, as survey shows full-time writers earn below minimum wage

www.theguardian.com

 

[Jonny]

Wow, that's a very enlightening article. Thanks for posting. I had heard those approximate numbers before from a friend in the business but it's still shocking and infuriating to see them in hard print.

It's a pretty poor show, that as a market sector, writers are so chronically undervalued. Particularly when you consider what the profession produces for most members of every society on the planet, then remuneration is definitely nothing short of exploitation for the everyday rank and file.

And not just novels either, but factual, scientific, newspaper and magazine writing - the list goes on and on.

 

[Mythobeast]

I'm curious why that is? Why are they tied to Amazon?

Amazon has efficiencies of scale that allow them to control prices. The US government doesn't regulate against monopolies any more. They do prevent large companies from joining with other large companies, but they don't prevent large companies from buying up the little competition. All the big companies (retailers, banks, tech firms) have to do is purchase the small companies before they get big enough to be a substantial portion of the market.

That's why Walmart is allowed to negotiate ruinously low prices, and why we have the most expensive, slowest broad-band internet in the industrialized world.

Technically, Amazon and Walmart don't have monopolies, they have monopsonies, where they have a controlling percentage of the buyers instead of the sellers. Amazon in particular has an overwhelming competitive advantage in the form of their software infrastructure, so they can name their selling rates. An enterprising soul could negotiate with all of the major publishers to produce a new, lower-cost distribution network. If the organization can't produce a smooth buying experience, then Amazon will crush them. If they can, then Amazon will buy them.

 

[Steve C]

Amazon does offer a better deal to writers, but to sell on it you have to transform yourself from a writer into an internet marketeer. This transition crosses the boundary separating art from capitalism. Many writers don't want to turn into marketeers and many have no choice if they want to see a return on their efforts. There is a new breed of publishers emerging that attempts to bridge the gap for the author. If they take on a writer they pay for all the editing and marketing just as a trad publisher might, except they sell on Amazon and pay the author 45-50% of the sales figure. Still a lot better than the 8-10% they normally get. This new breed are experts at marketing and will easily treble the sales any author would achieve on their own so worth their cut of the proceeds.
Having said that, Amazon personifies capitalism and some of it's worst practices like paying less than the minimum wage etc which in turn allows them to pay authors that bit more. That's the world we live in.

 

[CageSage]

new breed of publishers

Where are they hiding out? I'd like to meet one or two ... put my toes in the water, see what happens.

 

[Steve C]

You just need to google stuff like indie publishers accepting submissions etc
Here's a couple Joffe Books, London publisher of fiction, ebooks, novels founded by Jasper Joffe — JOFFE BOOKS, One of the UK's leading independent publishers

Sapere Books - Vibrant Voices. Sensational Stories. Beautiful Books.

Sapere Books are looking to publish the very best stories from exciting new voices and established authors, forging connections between our readers and our authors. Sapere Books believe that authors should receive a fair contract and extensive marketing support.

saperebooks.com

 

[CageSage]

You just need to google stuff like indie publishers accepting submissions etc
Here's a couple Joffe Books, London publisher of fiction, ebooks, novels founded by Jasper Joffe — JOFFE BOOKS, One of the UK's leading independent publishers

Sapere Books - Vibrant Voices. Sensational Stories. Beautiful Books.

Sapere Books are looking to publish the very best stories from exciting new voices and established authors, forging connections between our readers and our authors. Sapere Books believe that authors should receive a fair contract and extensive marketing support.

saperebooks.com

Thanks @Steve C
I think I'm writing in the wrong genre/s ... such is life. Might be time to consider doing one or two 'out of the box' again.

 

[georginaK]

The number above doesn't sound right.
This is what I found (US site):
eBook Royalty Options
You can choose between two royalty options for each of your eBooks: the 35% royalty option and the 70% royalty option.
There's more on eBook Royalty Options.
-- Amazon is a market place, and the highest volume of eBooks sales is through their platform.

And this makes it more clear (except you can't price a book at less than 0.99, except by *selling your soul* and *hanging from monkey-bars*):

The royalty rate you get paid from Amazon for eBooks is 70% of the retail price if the price of your eBook is between $2.99 and $9.99. If your book is priced between $0.01 and $2.98 or greater than $9.99, you get paid 35% royalties. Thus, most self-published authors prefer to price their eBooks between $2.99 and $9.99 on Amazon to receive a higher share of royalties. (from How Self-Published Authors Get Paid for Ebook Sales | TCK Publishing).

I am self-published, so choose to be in the 70% royalty option for some, and the 35% option for others (higher read-rate). I don't have any books over 9.99, and I don't have books with costs for transmission (usually involves pictures, but sometimes publishers upload documents with too much formatting, or the same formatting as the pb, which effectively multiplies the 'weight' of the finished product thereby invoking transmission costs). I also use one of two aggregators, rather than setting up publisher profiles on all the platforms (I use Smashwords & D2D, and currently trialing Google. D2D is only because they have a link to sell on Amazon [The 'zon doesn't recognise my bank]). Amazon has the most subscribers/buyers (I'm only referring to books). Using Amazon to sell books is making use of the highest volumes sales platform.

I think your publisher isn't playing it completely straight. Amazon may be paying the 70% and then the publisher is taking their percentage (25% -- I thought it would be 15% for publishers; check your contract) from the full price. Your book was in 70% price category ($7.20 in Australia today, $4.99 USD).

I don't publish exclusively to Amazon (not my biggest sales platform), but they have the reach to new readers so they can't be dismissed out of hand. Kobo is now creating a Kobo Plus to copy the structure of Amazon Books (for subscription readers, haven't checked the exclusivity criteria yet).

However, my comments don't include pb published through their platform. I use Ingram Sparks, despite the rigmarole (better reach, and) because the discounts are ones I can set, not the marketers/platforms (unless they are cutting into their own take).

It's worth checking. A lot of authors get annoyed by the lack of information/facts from their publishers and end up going indie if they find obfuscation and other forms of BS.

Thanks for the info! Perhaps the 70% royalty is different for publishers as opposed to self-publishing? It’s all quite confusing!

 

[georginaK]

There's no reason why you shouldn't pocket 70% of the Amazon price as Paul just said. The average for a traditionally published book - the writer get's 8-10% of the price. There's an interesting article here

Publishers are paying writers a pittance, say bestselling authors

Philip Pullman, Antony Beevor and Sally Gardner call for fairer share of profits, as survey shows full-time writers earn below minimum wage

www.theguardian.com

Actually I think my publisher was very generous with royalties—it’s basically 50:50

 

[georginaK]

Where are they hiding out? I'd like to meet one or two ... put my toes in the water, see what happens.

My publisher is awesome—very fair and supportive

 

[KateESal]

My publisher is awesome—very fair and supportive

...and appearing on Pop-Up Submissions in a few weeks time, Folks!

 

[CageSage]

After a bit of digging, I've discovered that if the publisher (whether indie or trad) puts stuff on Amazon through a subsidiary aggregator, they (Amazon) pay 55% of listed price, less transmission costs (if applicable, and on your book that may apply (too much formatting, but missed the style for headings on eBook - update; the heading style is fine; my mistake!) -- I haven't researched the thresholds). That may bring it into line with what your publisher said.

 

[Serac]

There's no reason why you shouldn't pocket 70% of the Amazon price as Paul just said. The average for a traditionally published book - the writer get's 8-10% of the price. There's an interesting article here

Publishers are paying writers a pittance, say bestselling authors

Philip Pullman, Antony Beevor and Sally Gardner call for fairer share of profits, as survey shows full-time writers earn below minimum wage

www.theguardian.com

That was a sobering read.

When you mentioned having to become an internet marketeer to succeed in Amazon's world, I shuddered. Feels dirty just thinking about it.

 

[Steve C]

That was a sobering read.

When you mentioned having to become an internet marketeer to succeed in Amazon's world, I shuddered. Feels dirty just thinking about it.

I don't think it's dirty but it ain't writing. Let's face it we all want to sell our work and sales means marketing. A tiny fraction of books are taken up by trad publishers who pay the authors just 10% of the proceeds. Clearly a daft business to go into but then I suspect most writers don't think of it as a business but agents and publishers do.
Personally I am leaning towards a hybrid. Publishing on Amazon but not doing it myself. Books need professional editing, formatting and promoting and I am not capable of doing that, nor do I want to. I'll have to weigh the costs and either back myself to recoup them or stick the MS in a draw. I am currently submitting to agents but in the current environment, I am not sure I would commit to one unless they could show me a clear way forward.

 

[Julie]

I don't think it's dirty but it ain't writing. Let's face it we all want to sell our work and sales means marketing. A tiny fraction of books are taken up by trad publishers who pay the authors just 10% of the proceeds. Clearly a daft business to go into but then I suspect most writers don't think of it as a business but agents and publishers do.
Personally I am leaning towards a hybrid. Publishing on Amazon but not doing it myself. Books need professional editing, formatting and promoting and I am not capable of doing that, nor do I want to. I'll have to weigh the costs and either back myself to recoup them or stick the MS in a draw. I am currently submitting to agents but in the current environment, I am not sure I would commit to one unless they could show me a clear way forward.

I get plenty of people who keep telling me I should go down the self-publishing route. I know I looked at Bookouture, but again, like Steve, I'm just not into marketing myself. I also feel that if you join one of these indie publishers you've got to be a quick writer that produces regularly. I just can't manage that; it's taken me ten years or so to get Fell whipped into shape. I'm half way through writing second, while first one is 'resting,' before targeting more agents. But while I'm hoping I'm a bit more up to speed, I couldn't say when it'll be done.

Last year I met a guy at a craft fair. He'd written several children's books and he was standing next to a cardboard cut out of one of his characters handing out stickers and signing copies of his books. He was self-publishing, and the books looked like ones you'd expect to see on a bookshelf (i bought a few as gifts), but he was telling me how much slog he'd done and he was still yet to make any money. He said it's all well and good trying Amazon, but he couldn't generate the footfall (is that right?) or breadcrumb trail that would lead a 'surfer' to his book. There's tens of thousands of books on Amazon so I see his point. I wonder how you would 'attach' your title to a more famous story - you know how you get 'other customers bought' selection? Otherwise, if you put your book on Amazon how would you prevent it from dipping beneath the swell where no one knows it exists.

Quoting Steve again, I agree that others need to be involved in a team effort to get a book ready for publication. Writers seem to be expected to wear different hats and if they don't then it seems we are limiting ourselves. But I just want to be a writer. I don't want or have the time to invest in learning marketing and spending hours looking at where my book is (if anywhere) on Amazon. An architect designs a house, he or she doesn't have to be au fait with laying bricks, installing electrics, etc., that's done by those with particular skills.

So I'm sticking with traditional for the foreseeable future, even though apparently the average writer can maybe make 11K a year. For me, it's not about how much money I can make, but rather having someone who can be that middle person who can negotiate with a publisher on my behalf. My joy would come from seeing it in print, on a shelf in a bookshop and being bought and enjoyed. Marketing managed by an agent, I can do: book signing, book tours, interviews. I don't have the front to generate it myself, just the story.

 

[georginaK]

...and appearing on Pop-Up Submissions in a few weeks time, Folks!

Yes! I’m so excited!!

 

[georginaK]

I get plenty of people who keep telling me I should go down the self-publishing route. I know I looked at Bookouture, but again, like Steve, I'm just not into marketing myself. I also feel that if you join one of these indie publishers you've got to be a quick writer that produces regularly. I just can't manage that; it's taken me ten years or so to get Fell whipped into shape. I'm half way through writing second, while first one is 'resting,' before targeting more agents. But while I'm hoping I'm a bit more up to speed, I couldn't say when it'll be done.

Last year I met a guy at a craft fair. He'd written several children's books and he was standing next to a cardboard cut out of one of his characters handing out stickers and signing copies of his books. He was self-publishing, and the books looked like ones you'd expect to see on a bookshelf (i bought a few as gifts), but he was telling me how much slog he'd done and he was still yet to make any money. He said it's all well and good trying Amazon, but he couldn't generate the footfall (is that right?) or breadcrumb trail that would lead a 'surfer' to his book. There's tens of thousands of books on Amazon so I see his point. I wonder how you would 'attach' your title to a more famous story - you know how you get 'other customers bought' selection? Otherwise, if you put your book on Amazon how would you prevent it from dipping beneath the swell where no one knows it exists.

Quoting Steve again, I agree that others need to be involved in a team effort to get a book ready for publication. Writers seem to be expected to wear different hats and if they don't then it seems we are limiting ourselves. But I just want to be a writer. I don't want or have the time to invest in learning marketing and spending hours looking at where my book is (if anywhere) on Amazon. An architect designs a house, he or she doesn't have to be au fait with laying bricks, installing electrics, etc., that's done by those with particular skills.

So I'm sticking with traditional for the foreseeable future, even though apparently the average writer can maybe make 11K a year. For me, it's not about how much money I can make, but rather having someone who can be that middle person who can negotiate with a publisher on my behalf. My joy would come from seeing it in print, on a shelf in a bookshop and being bought and enjoyed. Marketing managed by an agent, I can do: book signing, book tours, interviews. I don't have the front to generate it myself, just the story.

Your “position” on Amazon (including “customers also bought”) depends on number of reviews (and it’s A LOT). Sadly Amazon makes even that difficult: you can only leave a review if you’ve spent a certain amount of money on Amazon, and sometimes they won’t even post the review if the reviewer bought their copy from a third party!

 

[Hannah F]

I get plenty of people who keep telling me I should go down the self-publishing route. I know I looked at Bookouture, but again, like Steve, I'm just not into marketing myself.

Marketing managed by an agent, I can do: book signing, book tours, interviews. I don't have the front to generate it myself, just the story.

If your taken up by one of the top 5 publishing houses, you will have a marketing team behind you, but even then you've got to do some yourself. Indie publishers expect you to be active on the marketing side. There is the advantage that you have experts to take advice from.
Like many careers, an author has to wear multiple hats no matter which route you take.
I am determined to go down the publishing route for a number of reasons: I want my books on the shelf in shops like Waterstones (you can do that with self-publishing but it's difficult, I hear); I want the kudos; I want to be part of a publishing team, and - this is a big decision twister - it costs a minor fortune to do a publisher standard self-publishing job. I don't have a micro-fortune, let alone a minor one. Self-publishing is a non-starter for me.

 

[Mythobeast]

I've decided to bite the bullet and self-publish my first book. I'm sending it through a last round of copy-editing, and then off it goes. I'm ok with the self-marketing end of things. I mostly expect my first book to be a focal point for conversation while I'm writing my second book. Not terribly worried about making a lot of money, I just want to be able to pass it around and "build a presence." I won't be winning any awards with it, but that was never the goal. (not to say that it wouldn't be nice...)

 

[georginaK]

If your taken up by one of the top 5 publishing houses, you will have a marketing team behind you, but even then you've got to do some yourself. Indie publishers expect you to be active on the marketing side. There is the advantage that you have experts to take advice from.
Like many careers, an author has to wear multiple hats no matter which route you take.
I am determined to go down the publishing route for a number of reasons: I want my books on the shelf in shops like Waterstones (you can do that with self-publishing but it's difficult, I hear); I want the kudos; I want to be part of a publishing team, and - this is a big decision twister - it costs a minor fortune to do a publisher standard self-publishing job. I don't have a micro-fortune, let alone a minor one. Self-publishing is a non-starter for me.

A friend of mine was published by Little Brown, a big publisher here in the US, got a large advance, and I think my small indie press did more marketing for me than hers did for her! (She refused to do any social media marketing—I’ve done a lot of marketing myself for Shiny Bits.)

 

[Julie]

I've decided to bite the bullet and self-publish my first book. I'm sending it through a last round of copy-editing, and then off it goes. I'm ok with the self-marketing end of things. I mostly expect my first book to be a focal point for conversation while I'm writing my second book. Not terribly worried about making a lot of money, I just want to be able to pass it around and "build a presence." I won't be winning any awards with it, but that was never the goal. (not to say that it wouldn't be nice...)

Let us all know how you get on. There's always more than one way to go about things, and we each know what we're comfortable with. As for winning awards, like you, it's not a goal (god! My goal is just to get an agent for starters! Anything after is a definite bonus ). I write because I want to convey that elusive 'something' that we find when we read a great book - it's the feeling that follows you around long after you close it. Of course conveying it also means hunting it.

 

[Mythobeast]

I write because I want to convey that elusive 'something' that we find when we read a great book - it's the feeling that follows you around long after you close it.

Yes, that's it. In a way, I feel like I'm seeking immortality, or at least leaving the most important parts of my self for readers to find in the future.