Actual conversation

[Meerkat]

My best friend is very socially maladroit, as am I. She just texted me to say that her boyfriend (with whom she really should break up) made her feel bad tonight for her "social incompetence."

I said this to her:

"This is predicated on the prior assumption that hoomans are the creatures you should WANT to hang out with. This has not, in fact, been proven. After all, hoomans are the only known creatures in the cosmos . . . to visit another planetary body . . . and leave bags of actual poop there. I don't see the problem with wanting to avoid such beings."

Please, explain to me how I'm off-track here.

 

[Marc Joan]

Yes, but.
Humans are generally rubbish, but in the end, they're not all rubbish all of the time, and we all need each other, at least sometimes. She may well be with the wrong person, who knows, but giving up on the entire species isn't the answer. I've found that some people make me feel socially maladroit -- not deliberately, just through incompatibility -- and others don't. She just needs to find people with whom she can be herself and be comfortable with that. Perhaps she should spread her net a bit wider, i.e. meet a broader circle of people?

 

[Meerkat]

Well, let me put my Srs Bizns face on for a moment.

All of our beliefs are based on their veracity when compared with our experiences. If our experiences lead us to feel a certain way, then our beliefs will reflect it. To riff on Plato, if you've spent your life in a dark cave, and that is all you know, then you would pooh-pooh anyone who told you that there is a giant burning ball in the sky. That would seem utter insanity, and why would you accept that short of any evidence? You wouldn't.

Likewise, take the pink chimpanzee allegory. I do believe this is apocryphal, but it goes like this: researchers dyed a chimp pink and then put it in a cage with other chimps. The other chimps went mad and ripped the pink chimp to bits. (Again, I think it's made-up, but you get my point.)

My friend, and others like her (she is autistic), is a pink chimp. She has spent her life running from the other chimps so that they don't tear her apart. That is almost the entirety of her experience, save for me. How can she possibly be blamed for drawing the conclusion that these are dangerous creatures to be avoided? She knows nothing else.

Make sense?

ETA (because I don't want to spam):

Essentially, if you spend your life learning that x = x, then if some outside individual informs the poor soul that the entirety of her experience is wrong, and that x = z, then that person is simply gaslighting her: "Your experience is wrong -- don't trust it."

For her to change views and accept that x = z, she would have to have experience of x = z. She has not. An anecdote from her life: When she was in the fifth grade, she tried to have a birthday party for herself. She invited everyone in her class. She said that on the day of the party, she sat by her front door all day, and no one came.

I mean . . . yeah. Like I said, it must be proven that these are the planetary inhabitants one should want to interact with before asserting that she is wrong to avoid them. For her, this has not been proven. She is not wrong for keeping to herself; in fact, she would be a masochist not to.

 

[Marc Joan]

Aha, but one flaw in your argument is that she knows not all people are nasty; because she knows at least one nice one, i.e. you. Even if you are only one in a thousand, in a world of 7 billion there will be many others like you.
As for the birthday party anecdote: I suspect the parents were at least partly to blame.

 

[Katie-Ellen]

We are rather awful. Sometimes because an individual is just vile, and - this is unfashionable - I do think there is such a thing as an unpleasant or even evil person. But mostly, I think, our awfulness is because there are too many of us. Anything is awful in too great numbers; mice, locusts....
AND I do not propose to unselfishly remove myself to reduce the numbers by one, thereby helping reduce the awfulness. But I have met too many gallant, talented people to despair of us as an animal, too many wrestling quietly alone with the dark things in their life, too many who will share a smile, just passing in the street. If I was an alien on another planet and saw our spaceships coming I would be very, very afraid. Shit in orbit is pretty unspeakable, but also, at our highest expression, this Earth and the stars speak through us; there is music.

 

[Paul Whybrow]

Wishes of an Elderly Man, Wished at a Garden Party, June 1914

I wish I loved the Human Race;
I wish I loved its silly face;
I wish I liked the way it walks;
I wish I liked the way it talks;
And when I'm introduced to one
I wish I thought What Jolly Fun!

Sir Walter Alexander Raleigh

 

[Geoff]

Humans no matter how vile, ignorant, self-absorbed and cruel are the bread and butter of writing. Where would we be without the little darlings?

 

[Robinne Weiss]

I have a couple of autistic friends, and have worked with autistic children. (I seem to be drawn to people like that...kindred spirits? I hate the label, because I don't like the way it's treated as a "problem"--autism is just a different operating system...mac or windows...they both work fine...) Anyway, though they have had experiences like your friend (the pink chimp analogy is spot on in my mind--literally--for autistic boys), they have also found a small group of wonderful friends who love them for who they are, and understand that their behaviour, while often outwardly abrupt, rude an uncaring, is not meant as such, and is just part of what makes them remarkable human beings. It has not been easy for them. Has it been easy for any of us? And it is true that there are just some people you should ditch from your life, because they're simply toxic. But we all need someone, and it's worth sticking it out to find those people.

Anyway, that's my two cents...

 

[Meerkat]

As for the birthday party anecdote: I suspect the parents were at least partly to blame.

Oh, yes. Her parents are not impressive.

 

[Meerkat]

I do feel so bad for her; we met in our first year of college and hit it off right away (I have a very soft spot for misfits). She has had an absolutely horrifying life. Unfortunately, she moved away a while ago, so she's dealing with the world on her own now.

@Robinne Weiss I think the problem is finding those friends. The vast majority of people do not understand that autism is a neurological disorder, not a mental illness (and even if it were -- so what?). People hear that your brain rattles, and they freak out. They simply do not even want to give the pink chimps a chance. It's heartbreaking.

 

[Marc Joan]

Oh, yes. Her parents are not impressive.

Ha ha; but as you know, I meant the parents of the kids who did not turn up even when invited. We have always made a great effort to ensure that none of the kids at our children's classes are excluded from invitations or boycotted -- that kind of adult-origin bitchiness really has no place at school. The parents should have made sure their kids went to her party. And behaved.

 

[Robinne Weiss]

I do feel so bad for her; we met in our first year of college and hit it off right away (I have a very soft spot for misfits). She has had an absolutely horrifying life. Unfortunately, she moved away a while ago, so she's dealing with the world on her own now.

@Robinne Weiss I think the problem is finding those friends. The vast majority of people do not understand that autism is a neurological disorder, not a mental illness (and even if it were -- so what?). People hear that your brain rattles, and they freak out. They simply do not even want to give the pink chimps a chance. It's heartbreaking.

I hear you. It's hard enough for the rest of us to find those friends who support us and understand us. When you're different, it's a thousand times harder. But I do believe those people are out there--I've seen my friends find more than one who love them for who they are.

 

[Meerkat]

Ha ha; but as you know, I meant the parents of the kids who did not turn up even when invited. We have always made a great effort to ensure that none of the kids at our children's classes are excluded from invitations or boycotted -- that kind of adult-origin bitchiness really has no place at school. The parents should have made sure their kids went to her party. And behaved.

Ack! No, I really did think you meant her parents! (But then, I am familiar with how inadequate they are, so that's where my mind went.) But yes, I see what you mean -- it *would* be the other parents.

Sadly, there was a recent case in the last year of a similar situation -- it made the news. I wanted to cry -- I don't understand how grown adults can be so awful.

Strangers Save Birthday Party for Shunned Autistic Boy

*Please* don't click that link if you are easily upset. Yes, it had a happy ending, but still.

 

[J. Rook]

This thread, shows that the Litopian cross-section is sane, compassionate, intelligently thoughtful and heart-warmingly just nice. I agree with Katie-Ellen. There is a spiritual force operating in the world which is so inimical to human well-being that it can only be called "evil". Whether that includes being in opposition to a benign, protective deity is another question.

 

[Katie-Ellen]

Wishes of an Elderly Man, Wished at a Garden Party, June 1914

I wish I loved the Human Race;
I wish I loved its silly face;
I wish I liked the way it walks;
I wish I liked the way it talks;
And when I'm introduced to one
I wish I thought What Jolly Fun!

Sir Walter Alexander Raleigh

What's he doing at a garden party when that's how he feels? (I don't much like parties either; not conducive to good conversation)

Children's parties are a minefield of potential nastiness, and often that will be adult nastiness. Pissing competitions, a lot of that.

 

[Meerkat]

Well, the thing is, I haven't had good luck with humans either. My mother says that when I was growing up, I was extroverted, always happy, smiling, never knew a stranger. Heck -- I tried out for *cheerleading* when I was in middle school!

Now I slink along the outer walls of stores, hoping not to be noticed, and Mr Meerkat has to drag me out of the house to see my own friends (not his -- mine!). This sad state of affairs came to be because I have a well-honed talent for attracting the attention of nasty individuals, so I've been frighted out of interaction except in carefully controlled situations with known players.

IRL I make light of my war stories and try to tell my friends (when I actually see them) these tales in humorous ways so we can all have a good laugh . . . but it actually makes me really sad.

On the other hand, the blessing in it is that I am extraordinarily tolerant of all levels of "weird," find it easy to look at things from another person's perspective, enjoy hanging out with the publicans and sinners, and have a "live and let live" attitude. So something good has come of it all.

 

[Geoff]

In general I can't say that I dislike people, I just get bored with those who seriously believe that the trivialities of life are interesting to others. I.e a twenty minute diatribe about buying shoes for their children, or the minute details of a new magnolia toilet suite. I remember being stuck with a group of people who talked for an hour about motorway traffic and commuting to London. I just smiled and nodded.

 

[James Marinero]

In general I can't say that I dislike people, I just get bored with those who seriously believe that the trivialities of life are interesting to others. I.e a twenty minute diatribe about buying shoes for their children, or the minute details of a new magnolia toilet suite. I remember being stuck with a group of people who talked for an hour about motorway traffic and commuting to London. I just smiled and nodded.

So true. Add people who can only define themselves by the company they keep. (Litopia?)

At a birthday party Sat, I talked for 5 mins on the stupiduty of washing out yoghurt pots before recycling. Then I found a room with a tv and watched snooker. Much more entertaining, but still trivial. Of course, you could check out Zimbio onlien Mag which has a column reporting the latest sighting of celebs. Beam me up!

Well, it is Monday morning - and raining. Cue Carpenters, Boom Town Rats...

 

[Marc Joan]

So true. Add people who can only define themselves by the company they keep. (Litopia?)

At a birthday party Sat, I talked for 5 mins on the stupiduty of washing out yoghurt pots before recycling..

I am one of those who washes out pots before recycling. I know it's stupid, but I can't help myself.

 

[Meerkat]

I am one of those who washes out pots before recycling. I know it's stupid, but I can't help myself.

It is? We do that; I assumed you were s'posed to.

 

[James Marinero]

It is? We do that; I assumed you were s'posed to.

We did too, but the man who worked for the recyclers said it was not necessary - sure, scrape out half a tin of cat food, but anything else doesnt make ecological sense.

 

[Robinne Weiss]

I definitely wash pots out before recycling--otherwise the rats and mice get into them before I take them to the recycling centre, and it's disgusting.

But now that we've gotten the important conversation out of the way... It's an introverted trait to prefer meaty conversation with one or two people to trivialities with a crowd. When my kids were little, I tried to take them to the local Playcentre, which is a cooperative preschool where parents run the sessions. I only lasted a handful of sessions before I was ready to throw playdough at anyone who mentioned their latest diet again. It was THE ONLY topic of conversation...if you don't count little Johnnie's poop habits. Thankfully, the kids hated it, too, so I didn't feel bad when we pulled out.

I have a lovely friend who is also an extreme introvert. We run into each other occasionally, and we are part of a community group together. Other than that, we have never gotten together on our own for any reason. We laugh at ourselves for this, saying we really need to get together, then acknowledging that we never will, because neither one of us could possibly pick up the phone and invite the other over for a coffee. It's all about accepting who you are, and finding others who accept you too.