Book Club 20 January 2024 @8 PM GMT: Hernán Díaz: Trust

[MattScho]

So sorry to everyone to butt in like that (kicking Trust out of the discussion). I truly appreciate the help, however.

just to echo, we ditched Trust for you because your piece was more interesting to us. No apologies needed, that discussion made the gathering more interesting

 

[MattScho]

Now that must sting. You have my sympathy.

Awards are fun to win, but aside from providing a really great drunken night and a bit of cash, they're worthless. I won a bunch of stuff, doesn't matter. I lost a bunch of stuff, doesn't matter. What matters is writing what we need to write, and if people react to it, if you move someone, make them think or laugh (making folks cry is way, way too easy).

 

[Trey]

Hi Pete, a bunch of old, unreceived alerts from lots of people just appeared and i did get this one too. Yay.

 

[Pamela Jo]

Very interesting. Turns out the Pulitzer Prize is an award administered by Columbia University. And Diaz is the associate director of the Hispanic Institute for Latin American and Iberian Cultures at, none other than, Columbia University.

Also Pulitzer was a warmongering asshole who started the prize as a bandaid for his sins.

Rivalry with William Randolph Hearst​

An 1898 editorial cartoon by Leon Barritt depicts Pulitzer and Hearst each pushing for war with Spain.
In 1895, William Randolph Hearst purchased the rival New York Journal, which at one time had been owned by Pulitzer's brother, Albert. Hearst had once been a great admirer of Pulitzer's World.[54] The two embarked on a circulation war. This competition with Hearst, particularly the coverage before and during the Spanish–American War, linked Pulitzer's name with yellow journalism.[55]

Pulitzer and Hearst were also the cause of the newsboys' strike of 1899, a youth-led campaign to force change in the way that Joseph Pulitzer and William Randolph Hearst's newspapers.

 

[LJ Beck]

Also Pulitzer was a warmongering asshole who started the prize as a bandaid for his sins.

Huh! The history/origin of some of these things really makes you stop and wonder. TBH I've never been competitive, and awards and such often make me feel... sad. Sad that people like to be better than other people. That we promote and reward that kind of nature. But hey ho. Maybe an award is just an award.

Thanks @Pamela Jo ! Very interesting.

 

[Pamela Jo]

Huh! The history/origin of some of these things really makes you stop and wonder. TBH I've never been competitive, and awards and such often make me feel... sad. Sad that people like to be better than other people. That we promote and reward that kind of nature. But hey ho. Maybe an award is just an award.

Thanks @Pamela Jo ! Very interesting.

For me competitions are a way to determine how the wind is blowing in the business PLUS I've usually had to admit that to date - the people, who've won are better than me. It's spurred me to be better. That professional polish that Pete said almost none of the Pop Up submissions had. Funny thing is I know what it is for non fiction writing. I haven't quite got it for fiction yet-but I'm nearer since I started entering competitions.

 

[CarolMS]

For me competitions are a way to determine how the wind is blowing in the business PLUS I've usually had to admit that to date - the people, who've won are better than me. It's spurred me to be better. That professional polish that Pete said almost none of the Pop Up submissions had. Funny thing is I know what it is for non fiction writing. I haven't quite got it for fiction yet-but I'm nearer since I started entering competitions.

I think very much like you do, PJ, about entering contests. I've just entered two "first pages" contests and have several more in mind, but if I win or am even long-listed, I'll be shocked. Truly shocked. I neither expect to win nor is it my goal. Five years ago, if I'd entered, I may have thought I could win--I was that naive--but no more. I've looked at the quality of the past winners' writing, at their types of story premise and themes and levels of craft, and recognize the reality is that my writing isn't quite there. Depending on the prize, I may never get there. And that's okay, because the process helps me learn to write better, and is also a good discipline preparing me for submissions. I'm just submitting to a few contests with low fees as a learning exercise. I'm not even entering the same first pages (or titles) in the contests, because my novel is still so much "in process" and I keep reworking the opening pages. As I said, to me, it's an exercise.

I also refrain from being judgmental about books that have won specific contests and prefer not to criticize those contests themselves. I just don't know enough about the books, the contests' criteria or judges to offer meaningful commentary. The criticism often ends up sounding like sour grapes to me, perhaps having more to do with some writers just not realizing their writing isn't quite "there" yet. And that's okay! We writers are always learning, perfecting, polishing. We just need to keep at it.

 

[Hannah F]

Of course, it's important to remember that competitions are just as subjective as any form of submission. Apart from quality writing, there's an awful lot of luck involved. I enter only a few (or I'd lose the ability to afford food), but I view them as a lottery, all be it played by people with writing talent (and some without). If I win or am shortlisted: happy days! If I don't win, that's just the way the cookie crumbles. Unless there is personalised feedback (I look for those competitions especially), I don't learn from entering because I can generally read the winners without having entered. I learn much more from huddles and other critiques on my work/mine on other's work. And from reading good books.

 

[LJ Beck]

Well, there’s comps and awards.

I played the comp game a lot when I was screenwriting. That got me a manager and then I quit with the comps.

Can you get repped with prose comps? I guess there’s different prizes and some get you meetings or whatever?

And awards can sell more books so I totally get wanting to win those.

When I look at it as a marketing thing I totally get it.

 

[CarolMS]

Of course, it's important to remember that competitions are just as subjective as any form of submission. Apart from quality writing, there's an awful lot of luck involved. I enter only a few (or I'd lose the ability to afford food), but I view them as a lottery, all be it played by people with writing talent (and some without). If I win or am shortlisted: happy days! If I don't win, that's just the way the cookie crumbles. Unless there is personalised feedback (I look for those competitions especially), I don't learn from entering because I can generally read the winners without having entered. I learn much more from huddles and other critiques on my work/mine on other's work. And from reading good books.

I agree about the luck factor, and that the contest sponsors' motivations, personal preferences and knowledge--from which all that subjectivity springs--has everything to do with it. I've only entered three contests so far, one that was free through an association I belong to, two recent others at $20 (cost is a big factor for me, too), and a few months ago I entered a new opening version to a contest I'd previously submitted to, sponsored by an author who has assisted me with valuable feedback in the past. The contests with feedback are indeed the most helpful. I wish it was offered more often, but I understand why it isn't, given they get hundreds, even more than a thousand entries for each contest. Learning from reading good books is by far the best way to learn, I think. In keeping with my obsessive-compulsive personality issues, I guess I tend to just reach for insights and tips from every source I can. I'm like a kid in a candy store, which can be fun, but frankly, not always helpful. It's like ADD, and it's been a problem all my life. Sigh.

 

[CarolMS]

An added thought: A great way I've found to review the opening pages of published works even if I don't have time to read them in full is to go to Amazon and look for books in my preferred genre, then use the Preview option to read the openings. I get some insight into what's working to start a story off in a way that hooks agents and publishers. And the ratings numbers given for the genres the books are placing in gives some idea of how well they are selling. Not sure how accurate any assumptions I make might be, but it is intereting to do this.

 

[CarolMS]

Well, there’s comps and awards.

I played the comp game a lot when I was screenwriting. That got me a manager and then I quit with the comps.

Can you get repped with prose comps? I guess there’s different prizes and some get you meetings or whatever?

And awards can sell more books so I totally get wanting to win those.

When I look at it as a marketing thing I totally get it.

I think I must be a little confused. I think of the contests (or competitions, with the word used interchangeably) as the way the awards are decided. Though I guess I'm not including the really big awards, which I think have books recommended to them for consideration through more specified avenues and sources.
How do you differentiate "comps" from contests? (I assume by "comps" you mean competitions. In the U.S., comps is a short-cut word we use for "comparables.")