Of Headscarves & Hymens: A Candid Conversation With Mona Eltahawy

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Nor my end.

Showzup now!

Pete and I cast the runes and decided that Sundays at 7pm (not 6:56 MontanaMan!) would be our standard release time. (have no idea why he posted this thread so early-- the man moves in mysterious ways (?!))
I truly hope people enjoy, discuss and share the show-- IMHO it's one of our best and she speaks to issues that need as much oxygen as possible.
(And okay fine she's one of my heroes)
 
Showzup now!

Pete and I cast the runes and decided that Sundays at 7pm (not 6:56 MontanaMan!) would be our standard release time. (have no idea why he posted this thread so early-- the man moves in mysterious ways (?!))
I truly hope people enjoy, discuss and share the show-- IMHO it's one of our best and she speaks to issues that need as much oxygen as possible.
(And okay fine she's one of my heroes)

That was quite the interview. It was very good!
 
Just got kids ready for school...making my coffee now readying myself for another lovely listen to LAD..... :D


[10 minutes later] Ok...kids are out the door... am sitting down now with my cuppa for a relaxing listen to the lovely Mona in front of a splutter free keyboard ...
 
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I've made an audio response to this which means I couldn't edit out the bad grammar and the 'er's and the 'um's...but here it is in its crude, amateur 'yes I can bloody well try at least' attitude.

Having trouble converting to video for upload.....brb
 
She's a delight, and what a terrifying account, truly terrifying, and I think too, of all the girls and women being murdered in Mexico, but where's the neat fix for such horrors, and I imagine many men are miserable with a world in which they are deprived of the company, the proper company, of women.

Not saying there is no fix. Of the women here and maybe some of the men, we've all very likely had hands put where they had no business to be, as we went around minding our own business. It happened to me as a young woman, not, however, and which is a crucial distinction, by anyone who had official sanction, or at least, protection from legal consequences.

We too, as a society have to a degree BEEN THERE in the not too distant past. Suffragettes reported that, being arrested for creating public disturbances, they were assaulted, breasts twisted etc etc by officers who knew they would get away with it. My mother, born in 1939 was 17 when she went to a police station because she had lost a piece of jewellery and hoped someone had handed it in. They hadn't, but the young policeman at the counter asked if she'd like a tour of the station. Why not, she said, (stupidly, as she now says) and he took her down to the cells, 'sight seeing', then locked himself inside a cell with her and took out his lalalalalala, which looked ready for action, and she thought, help! What do I do? So she pointed, laughing at his lalalallala until it went all small again and he put it away. She said, let me out this second or your sergeant gets to hear all about it, and he did.

Unthinkable. Here? Now?

There's got to be hope.
 
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I have a hard time understanding misogyny, but it's pretty pervasive. In its extreme forms, a la Mona, we can safely stand back and condemn it, but in truth, I suspect its roots are far closer to home.
 
I liked them both, big time. Great guests with something to say, and not mememememememe.
No doubt: good guests make good shows and what makes a good guest from where I'm sitting is a combination of confidence and experience. The confidence-- or outrage-- to translate what they've been through into cultural touchstones beyond the self. To make what they've been through meaningful in a broader context. ( of course, a little charisma and a sense of humor never killed anyone:)).

One of my favorite Henry Rollins quotes is "Knowledge without mileage equals bullshit."

Regardless of politics, you cannot ignore Mona or Bari's perspective after where they lived and what they've been through-- which is why the semantic grief she's given by academics galls me. Even though Mona has no doubt told her sexual assault tales countless time, you can hear the raw emotion and rage still bubbling behind her account. But the 100% sexual harassment rate for Egyptian women is outrageous. In Mona's own words: "surely we must blaspheme."
 
So much to say. Sorry for the length.

About the modesty thing, I have been in discussions with American fundamentalists (I was raised in an extremely repressive fundamentalist sect) who state that women should cover up everything, not even wearing short sleeves, because otherwise, they will tempt a man. The meaning behind this argument is that women's bodies are viewed as so inherently sexual and dangerous that men, who are presumably otherwise impeccable in character, will be unable to help themselves and will have impure thoughts. Again, the woman is the source of temptation here. When I counter-argued that the problem lay not in what a woman wears, but in the disordered state of the mind of a man who cannot help sexualizing a woman's body, I was told that I "just wanted to wear whatever I wanted and didn't care who I caused to sin." This was said to me absent any photographic evidence or statements on my part of my clothing.

Someone wiser than me has said that modesty is not a garment, but an attitude. I agree. I live in the American South, where it is not only hot, but excessively humid. In summertime, I wear short skirts and tank tops in an effort to stay cool. I never, ever worry that anyone is looking at me askance, and if they are, you know what? That's their disordered mind that can't see a body, which is inherently neutral in and of itself, without lusting for it. That is not my issue to worry about.

In fact, I know a guy who was raised in the same sect, and he has always refused to watch Schindler's List, because, he said, "the concentration camp prisoners might be naked, and then I would have sexual thoughts about them." That is AMAZING. That is sad.

About harassment, I am well aware that my body language telegraphs that I am easy to take advantage of. This is very attractive to predatory males, and this is why when I was dating, I just plain refused to be alone with any man, even one I was on a date with. But again, you know what? This should NOT be an issue. It is incumbent on the men to act like civilized humans, not me "asking for it" because of my body language. I should be able to walk down the street stark naked without being considered to be asking for it.

One other thing: I found, when I was single, that men would simply not respect a woman's "refusal" to go out with or engage in sex with them. The expectation is that "of course you should want to go out with me." I recall when I was 13, a boy asked me to "go" with him. (That's middle-school parlance for "be my girlfriend.") I did not like him--not even as a friend, so I said no. He called me incessantly for days, insisting that I give him a reason for saying no. Another time, during my senior year of college, I went out to a pub with a male friend of mine whom I had known since freshman year. I had NEVER given him the slightest hint that I was interested in him (because I wasn't). We're sitting at the bar, just talking about who knows what, when suddenly he puts his hand on my back and starts rubbing it. I had NO idea what to do, because I am an awkward person. But I figured I'd better nip it in the bud, so I pointed at him and said (loudly), "Hey, you're not getting lucky tonight!" He got ANGRY and started telling what an idiot I was and how stupid I was. All because I dared to exercise sovereignty over my body.

What WILL these men respect? If you say you have a boyfriend. These types of men will pursue you for as long as they can until and unless you say, "I'm sorry, but I have a boyfriend." Then they will stop. Why? Because you have just told them, "Sorry, I am another man's property." They will respect his territory, but not your simple refusal to date them, because "of course" you should want to get with that.

If anyone wants to read it, I actually wrote a short story from the perspective of a woman who is a part of the milieu that says women are by nature sexually dangerous to men. The story "exposes" the attitudes toward sex and women that men with this mindset have.
 
Am in Iran currently so internet is sporadic. Couldn't upload anything unfortunately, never mind.

Great interview Ian. She has had a truly traumatic experience that I could never imagine. I found myself nodding to much of what she said but had no idea how prevalent sexual harassment in Egypt is. Geez!

Unfortunately Saudi Arabia in the very holy sites is awful when it comes to groping. Disgusting. They have no intention of addressing this issue and I strongly condemn the silence that many show towards much of the human rights abuses that go on there.

I can understand her views on the headscarf - she used it as a hiding 'tool'. I used weight as a hiding tool. Not my headscarf. I've worn mine since I was 9 - a celebratory milestone for many of the Iraqi girls in the UK. It wasn't something we hated - getting bribed with presents and a cake with your friends always does the trick - every. single. time.

Personally I see it like wearing shoes...I feel weird without it. But sometimes it's nice to feel the grass between your toes or the wind in your hair as she says :D

The hijab itself is modesty - more of a concept than an attire. For both genders. This is contrary to what is told. So everyone interprets it differently and no one can dictate to another what is and isn't right.

I enjoyed the interview although we're both arabs we've had a totally different spectrum of experiences with men. I've only ever known respect with Iraqi men and boys in general. Maybe odd things here and there that I can't recall. I don't doubt that there are issues. But nothing like the experiences that Mona experienced in Egypt. That is truly shocking. What ISIS are doing in Iraq now is pure destruction on every level and the treatment towards women well it's just getting so bad in Iraq and Syria that it beggars belief.

Whilst in Iran I'm expected to criticise the social norms - I won't, because I genuinely like it. I grumble about the chadoor (the black cloak worn) but it's only worn in the holy sites not in Tehran or other cities. I have never felt so safe in the world than I do here. This is a major statement. I have visited Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Sweden, France, Spain, and of course live mainly in England. No where have I been where I can go out late and come home on my own in a taxi without feeling that fear of looking over my shoulders.

I couldn't imagine living in Egypt. Ever.
 
I have been without broadband for a week now-- egads!-- so please excuse my absence.

The other day I was walking through a nearby park (my neighborhood in East London = 40% Bengali Muslim) warm day, in shorts and sandals and there were people walking their dogs, a couple Bengali girls in beautiful beehive headscarves, all made up, chatting with an old man in a skullcap, some yoofs on their motorbike, people smoking on benches, etc... then I rounded the corner and there, sorry to say, was a ninja. Full niquab. Head to toe. I said hello because we passed close and received only a hard stare. This happens all the time.

What I think going on is this: Islam has got this much right: primate males are, at base, animals who will shag anything they're attracted to, and anything at all without a healthy, consensual outlet. Given this, women are expected to cover up so as not to incite desire in men. But here's the problem:

1. Cultural pressure is then exerted on young girls to cover up on hot days, lest they be molested (which, as Mona says, doesn't work in Saudi Arabia, site of Islam's holiest cities). And
2. It says to little boys: you cannot control yourself. If you see so much as an arm you're going to have to shag whoever it's attached to and it will be her fault.

In my mind, Emurelda is in the minority: CHOOSING to wear the hijab as a reflection of her modesty (and gentle nature). But as a whole, Islam appears to be creating a disproportionate number of uncomfortable, fearful women and men who have never been inspired to overcome their baser natures
 
I get the same reaction from ninjas too...and being in Iran from the penguin community as well:D.

It's just rude manners really. The equivalent to stiff upper lip.

The reason I seem in the minority is because you're in a saudi cultured neighbourhood.

In saudi the men even wear niqab...the dust is so strong that they all cover their faces. What has happened, and I've witnessed this trend is since sept -11...many muslim women from certain cutures have adopted the saudi culture as a yardstick especially the bengali and pakistani communities.

Due to there being a large majority of muslims from these wonderful lands in the UK you will think that that is mainstream. Most muslim women don't even wear traditional head covering in the world. That's a fact. They are modest still and as far as I'm concerned are following the religion. But the extremists are louder than the rest of us...and more obvious physically. So you probably walk in other neighbourhoods and pass lots of muslim women not realising they are muslim women 'cos they look like the rest of the populous.
 
A head covering is one thing, and can be attractive. The queen is often shown wearing a scarf tied beneath her chin. Many of our mothers did, worn different ways. It used to be a regular thing and sometimes high fashion. I had the odd moment in the late 70's of wearing a small headscarf , though it still revealed plenty of hair. Hippy chic. Concealing the face ratchets it up a whole lot of notches, and puts a cultural difference right in everyone's face. Western culture, apart from notable legendary exceptions, quite a few; Robin Hood, the Scarlet Pimpernel, Zorro, Batman..... profoundly distrusts and therefore dislikes the masked, concealed face.
 
A head covering is one thing, and can be attractive. The queen is often shown wearing a scarf tied beneath her chin. Many of our mothers did, worn different ways. It used to be a regular thing and sometimes high fashion. I had the odd moment in the late 70's of wearing a small headscarf , though it still revealed plenty of hair. Hippy chic. Concealing the face ratchets it up a whole lot of notches, and puts a cultural difference right in everyone's face. Western culture, apart from notable legendary exceptions, quite a few; Robin Hood, the Scarlet Pimpernel, Zorro, Batman..... profoundly distrusts and therefore dislikes the masked, concealed face.

I have strong opinions against wearing the niqab in a western country where it attracts negative attention thus becoming an immodest feature.
 
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I have strong opinions against wearing the niqab in a western country where it attracts negative attention thus becoming an immodest feature.
That's an interesting perspective, Emu.

In southern Maryland the hijab is actually very common — and you even see the niqab once in a while. So I don't even notice anymore.

But coming from rural Michigan (where the population was 50% caucasian, 49.9% mexican), there was an absolute sensation at school, when we gained our first-ever African-American student, in 2001. Moving to Maryland at age 26 was the first time in my life that I had seen a niqab or a hijab, and there was definitely a culture shock. I was all like, "Holy crap Sweetie, the mujahideen are here!" My wife rolled her eyes, as is her oft, and continued shopping. She grew up in this area.
 
:D lol @ mujahideen. That was a little too much to wake up to at 4am!

But that's a good point about cultural shock. Most times we get over certain 'shocks' in society as they become normal among us. But the niqab is one of the few cultural habits that one can't seem to get over no matter how many years pass 'seeing it' for many people. This translates as something unnatural. Whilst I do respect some of my friends who wear it. I don't agree with them. Especially the arguments posed by them for wearing it.

The argument that they are following modest habits of noble women in the past wore doesn't sit well with me. In the context of history for example every Prophet wore what the cultural norms were of that era. So the Prophet of Islam didn't don on attire that Prophet Moses or Jesus wore just because he loved and respected them. He wore what was suitable for his generation. Likewise for the women of that time.

So if muslims were to follow that example we shouldn't be following the literal interpretation of 'following' but the relative interpretation. In this case hijab/modesty is a template to apply to any era and geography one chooses and the saying 'when in Rome' becomes a truth of wisdom if one can see it.

Shaking hands in western culture is common. Something seen as taboo for interaction between men and women for muslims. However it is so common and instinctive it becomes almost like a blink. Not even an issue in the western world. Unfortunately it is made into an issue by many muslims. For that reason i discriminate between shaking hands out of respect for someone's culture vs shaking hands with a man who thinks it is wrong to.

This takes me back to a fond memory I have locked away in a bejewelled compartment within my labyrinthine of thoughts; graduation 1999. As an Imperial College alumni we are probably the luckiest graduates in the world to have the privilege of having our graduation ceremony held inside The Royal Albert Hall itself. Beautiful and stunning in every way. As I stepped onto the stage it is usual to shake hands with the honorary gentleman and sit back straight after. Being the only student wearing hijab in my Physics department I didn't expect different treatment. Yet as I was about to extend my hand the gentleman picked up his hat and nodded to me smiling gently in true respectful old English style. How wonderful, I thought, for such a considerate gesture out of his own worldly knowledge of other cultures. Needless to say I felt special. I have a lot of admiration for the English generation of our grandparents age. There is a lot lost in the process of time-turning.

I mention this because I thought just as I try to respect others culture, it's nice when it is also reciprocated. For everyone.
 
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A photo perspective coming from the direction of our Physics department (Blackett Laboratory) towards the Royal Albert Hall.

17ad4a81e3185c4f1015beec28b74f86.jpg


And having Hyde Park behind it for last minute revision just before an exam...*sigh* happiness right there. Not quite normal for a former student to say but just sitting on the grass with your closest friend amongst the flowers in the sun just before an exam...it really calms the nerves.
 
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The reason I seem in the minority is because you're in a saudi cultured neighbourhood.

In saudi the men even wear niqab...the dust is so strong that they all cover their faces. What has happened, and I've witnessed this trend is since sept -11...many muslim women from certain cutures have adopted the saudi culture as a yardstick especially the bengali and pakistani communities.
This explains a lot, thanks! I assume the reason for this is because they see the Saudis as being the most devout? Mecca and Medina being in Saudi Arabia, land of the prophet? I never understood why many of the Bengali women in my neck of the woods wear make-up, trousers, and fabulous beehive headscarves while others go the full niquab-- usually women 40+. This is where I get the hard stares. Though much of that may have to do with the haram dog ;)

P1080018.JPG
 
Haram dog is so cute though! :D

Yes, I can see that that could be reason enough that the saudi-culture is followed ie that they are 'protectors of the holy sites' even though recent events claim otherwise. It's a very simplistic viewpoint that they hold, forgetting that a time came when pagans also used to 'look after' the Ka'ba. The ability to 'look after' (however contentious) is not a reason to respect someone or group who do countless abuses in other areas. That in anyone's book is called hypocrisy.

Also the saudis invest in a lot of propaganda in Pakistan and Bangladesh to get 'followers' so they are conditioned in the UK too, through mosques, saudi-leaning imams etc.

Although to be fair every country does this if they can. C.f Hollywood movies bias against some groups over others. Conditioning society to relate to one group of people over another group using subliminal methods through the media in general. I think anyone does it if they can afford too. It's just a case of being aware of oneself and keeping our principles of humanity. That's the only way to neutralise any propaganda nonsense.
 
The argument that they are following modest habits of noble women in the past wore doesn't sit well with me. In the context of history for example every Prophet wore what the cultural norms were of that era. So the Prophet of Islam didn't don on attire that Prophet Moses or Jesus wore just because he loved and respected them. He wore what was suitable for his generation. Likewise for the women of that time.
That is a good point!


A photo perspective coming from the direction of our Physics department (Blackett Laboratory) towards the Royal Albert Hall.

17ad4a81e3185c4f1015beec28b74f86.jpg
HOLY CRAP!
 
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