Craft Chat Is Justification Justified?

[Sedayne]

I'd like to canvas opinion on justification of text.

It's a small thing in the grand scheme of things, but one that bothers me (like the fact that I'm no longer supposed to put two spaces after a full stop and I can't break the instinct after decades of doing so).

I like writing with both sides justified. I like the way the word processor shuffles it all to fit. I like it because real books are (mostly) justified on both sides.
But I've noticed recently that e-books (rather than real books) are sometimes only justified on the left. And it was mentioned in Huddle South last month by @AgentPete that query letters, at least, look better with left only justification - it was such a tiny point and ages ago now, so I wouldn't expect him to remember, but it's worried me ever since.

Now I'm wrangling my synopsis and it fits on one page if I justify it both sides, but there's a pesky widow on page two if I don't.

Anyway, what do Litopians think about justification? Does anyone care very much? Are there any particular expectations when submitting work to agents/publishers/competitions?

If it's a matter of taste, I'll stick to my clean lines both sides, but I'm open to persuasion if there is strong opinion to the contrary.

 

[Hannah F]

Most of what I hear is when submitting query letters/manuscript extracts use 1.5 or 2.0 spacing (not single spacing - they speed-read which is very difficult if the lines are too close together) and left alignment with paragraph indentations (except for the first of a chapter or after a line-break). When submitting your work, it is not "finished" - your agent/publisher is bound to want changes. Both side justification can look too finished - as if ready to print, as if you won't necessarily be amenable to making changes. Of course, that's not necessarily true, it's just the way it sits on the page, but appearances play games with the mind so they matter.
Your widow: edit your sentence/paragraph until you don't have one.

 

[Sedayne]

When submitting your work, it is not "finished" - your agent/publisher is bound to want changes. Both side justification can look too finished - as if ready to print, as if you won't necessarily be amenable to making changes.

I hadn't considered this, but it makes sense.
A writer friend advised bilateral justification decades ago, when word processing was relatively new, so I've always used it. But it's another old habit I need to break out of, like the spaces after a full stop.

 

[Rachael Burnett]

To me, the main thing is to follow the guidelines on the agent/published website, which of course you'll do. Most will want (as Hannah states) 1.5 or 2.00 space, as it's easier to read. As I'm an over-writer, I usually mess with the size of the margins (not so much that they're too tiny) to get it to fit onto one page. I feel your pain re double-spacing after a sentence. I went to one of those 1980s secretarial college where they slapped your hand if you looked at the keys and we were taught to add two spaces after a full stop. I cannot tell the annoyance of going through a 100k word doc and remove one space after every sing effing sentence. To me, if a agent/publisher likes the work, they won't care about such things, but with so many manuscripts, you have have to weigh up not giving them a reason to reject you before reading. However, I'm not 100% sure I buy into this theory. Surely an agent is going to read a least the first line, if not the first para because they don't want to miss out on the next big thing. A good agent will know after that if they're interested and want to read on. If they're going reject you because of spacing, etc. do you want to work with someone like that. I'd want to work with someone who loves the work, who recognises the writing. All the little things of spacing, grammar, etc. will be sorted out by someone else in the publishing process anyway. Having said, that, I going back to follow their guidelines not to annoy. What I found is that agents often want something different such as one page, x amount of word, and another with another x amount of words, one side of a page, etc. etc. you often can't just have one synopsis, which is totally annoying but part of the whole publishing malarky.

 

[Sedayne]

To me, the main thing is to follow the guidelines on the agent/published website, which of course you'll do.

Absolutely, but although some of the guidance is strict about font size, spacing, etc, I've never seen anything stated about justification. I think @Hannah F makes a good point, so I'll go unilateral left before I submit. I find it easier to read and edit with bilat justification, but at least it's a reasonably easy fix.

If they're going reject you because of spacing, etc. do you want to work with someone like that. I'd want to work with someone who loves the work, who recognises the writing.

Good point.

I went to one of those 1980s secretarial college where they slapped your hand if you looked at the keys and we were taught to add two spaces after a full stop.

I don't regret that training, though. I'm proud of my Pitman qualification from 1990-ish, and I love the fact that I don't have to look at my hands when I type. Similar to when I learned piano as a child - my sadistic teacher had a ruler to 'tap' hands with.

 

[Rachael Burnett]

Absolutely, but although some of the guidance is strict about font size, spacing, etc, I've never seen anything stated about justification. I think @Hannah F makes a good point, so I'll go unilateral left before I submit. I find it easier to read and edit with bilat justification, but at least it's a reasonably easy fix.

Good point.

I don't regret that training, though. I'm proud of my Pitman qualification from 1990-ish, and I love the fact that I don't have to look at my hands when I type. Similar to when I learned piano as a child - my sadistic teacher had a ruler to 'tap' hands with.

Yes, I went to Pitmans in Bradford. One of the best things I did learning how to touch-type, comes in so handy with so many areas of life although I do still type as if typing on a manual typewriter and so knacker keyboards quickly and I get older I’m definitely getting pains in my fingers.

 

[Sedayne]

Yes, I went to Pitmans in Bradford. One of the best things I did learning how to touch-type, comes in so handy with so many areas of life although I do still type as if typing on a manual typewriter and so knacker keyboards quickly and I get older I’m definitely getting pains in my fingers.

I once told a student nurse to press return, and she didn't know what I meant.
'Oh, do you mean enter?'

 

[Hannah F]

Typewriter: A percussion instrument.

 

[Sedayne]

Typewriter: A percussion instrument.

Love this - I always wondered what the finished page would look like if the piece being played had actually typed anything.

 

[Sedayne]

I usually mess with the size of the margins (not so much that they're too tiny) to get it to fit onto one page.

A revelation! I just tried this on my synopsis - just a little shave of the margins all round - works a treat.
I must be really dumb that this had never occurred to me.

 

[Rachael Burnett]

A revelation! I just tried this on my synopsis - just a little shave of the margins all round - works a treat.
I must be really dumb that this had never occurred to me.

Glad it worked out.

 

[Hannah F]

A revelation! I just tried this on my synopsis - just a little shave of the margins all round - works a treat.
I must be really dumb that this had never occurred to me.

Agents and editors are all too aware of this trick. If they say one page, they mean a page with standard margins.

 

[Sedayne]

Agents and editors are all too aware of this trick. If they say one page, they mean a page with standard margins.

Oh well, if 6mm difference is pushing it, I'll have to change it back.

It's odd because many guidelines say 500 words/one page, but can't even get 419 words to fit.

 

[Rachael Burnett]

Oh well, if 6mm difference is pushing it, I'll have to change it back.

It's odd because many guidelines say 500 words/one page, but can't even get 419 words to fit.

I can’t recall coming across any that state standard margins, and I’ve received full request and an agent offers with reducing them. If they specifically say standard margins (a subjective statement in and of itself) then of course do that, but how are they defining ‘standard’. Is any agent going to have the time to check?

 

[Sedayne]

I can’t recall coming across any that state standard margins, and I’ve received full request and an agent offers with reducing them. If they specifically say standard margins (a subjective statement in and of itself) then of course do that, but how are they defining ‘standard’. Is any agent going to have the time to check?

Standard margins in Word are 2.54cm. Moderate setting is 1.92cm, top and bottom are the same.
Moderate looks nice actually, although I'm still not keen on my raggedy edges since I've taken the right justification off.
I'm happy to obey the rules, but I still like to grumble sometimes.

 

[Paul R]

My books are published with unjustified (left aligned but 'ragged right'). We've gone with this as a conscious decision because many dyslexic folk find justified text difficult to read. It might look nicer but what they see can be described as 'rivers of white' flowing down the page, because many dyslexic folk find that what stands out is the white space, more than the text, and if the size of those spaces between the words is variable, it creates these 'rivers'. Another factor is that it's harder to keep track of your place on the page if all the lines are exactly the same length. My wife is dyslexic and this is her experience, but also, having chosen to do this with my books, and also having chosen a dyslexia friendly sans-serif font (Atkinson Hyperlegible), I've had lots of people comment on how readable the text is and nobody saying it looks odd. In fact, one person I met at a Pride festival was considering buying a copy for their child, but said that she herself never read books because she was dyslexic. I showed her a page in my book and she took one look and said 'Oh yes, but I can read that!'
So although justified text looks neater, I'd like to see the whole industry go left aligned, unjustified for the sak of accessibility.

 

[Sedayne]

My books are published with unjustified (left aligned but 'ragged right'). We've gone with this as a conscious decision because many dyslexic folk find justified text difficult to read. It might look nicer but what they see can be described as 'rivers of white' flowing down the page, because many dyslexic folk find that what stands out is the white space, more than the text, and if the size of those spaces between the words is variable, it creates these 'rivers'. Another factor is that it's harder to keep track of your place on the page if all the lines are exactly the same length. My wife is dyslexic and this is her experience, but also, having chosen to do this with my books, and also having chosen a dyslexia friendly sans-serif font (Atkinson Hyperlegible), I've had lots of people comment on how readable the text is and nobody saying it looks odd. In fact, one person I met at a Pride festival was considering buying a copy for their child, but said that she herself never read books because she was dyslexic. I showed her a page in my book and she took one look and said 'Oh yes, but I can read that!'
So although justified text looks neater, I'd like to see the whole industry go left aligned, unjustified for the sak of accessibility.

That's good rationale. I feel happier about that than simply adhering to rules.

 

[Hannah F]

I can’t recall coming across any that state standard margins, and I’ve received full request and an agent offers with reducing them. If they specifically say standard margins (a subjective statement in and of itself) then of course do that, but how are they defining ‘standard’. Is any agent going to have the time to check?

Well, if you've got a stonkingly good submission, I'm sure they won't care.