Formatting and Page Styles

[Alistair Roberts]

Now firstly let me remind you, I am no expert and have learnt from others and read etc..
There are different opinions (for everything) and there are slight variations between the US and the UK and in Australia we spell things a little different and have other unimportant oddities. That said, here's one website with some useful info, though one may not agree with it all, and I have only had a quick read. I dare say most of you will know this, but for those just starting out it's worth reading and noting.

Although it says to have 1 inch (2.5cm) margins all around, I've been told to make the left margin about 1.5 inches for the benefit of editors.

http://www.marlyspearson.com/formatting_101.htm

Maybe someone knows of more sites that provide guideline suggestions, but also read what the individual agents and publishers ask in their submission guidelines.

 

[Jason Byrne]

Acknowledgement is due here to @Karen Gray — I believe she follows the format illustrated in the above article very closely.

I, however, am guilty of single-spacing, three-quarter-inch tabs, two-spaced periods, em dashes with spaces, and page breaks after chapters. What I need is a version of the story file adjusted to proper submission guidelines.

The article itself espouses that these are the least likely to land you in the rejection pile, compared to plot holes, typos, and poor grasp of technique, but I have said several times that if they're looking for a reason, why give them one?

 

[Karen Gray]

Acknowledgement is due here to @Karen Gray — I believe she follows the format illustrated in the above article very closely.

I, however, am guilty of single-spacing, three-quarter-inch tabs, two-spaced periods, em dashes with spaces, and page breaks after chapters. What I need is a version of the story file adjusted to proper submission guidelines.

The article itself espouses that these are the least likely to land you in the rejection pile, compared to plot holes, typos, and poor grasp of technique, but I have said several times that if they're looking for a reason, why give them one?

Have you thought about setting the styles in word and just copy and pasting? That way you could just write and it would just be the right style, or. You can write the way you prefer and then just copy it over xx

To be fair, I only follow 'industry standard' closely because I learned to do it that way after not being taught properly at school, and I learned recently (2013). The only reason I came out of high school with a B for higher English is because of my storytelling.

Even now I struggle with punctuation and grammar and spelling, though as you know I have other hurdles in those departments. I'm the unlucky one that walked out of school and into university not knowing the difference between verb and adjectives, and all the rest.

 

[Karen Gray]

Although it says to have 1 inch (2.5cm) margins all around, I've been told to make the left margin about 1.5 inches for the benefit of editors.

The OU teaches 3cm margins too. They also teach that the first line should never be indented and that the indents should be 1.25cm.

 

[Jason Byrne]

The OU teaches 3cm margins too. They also teach that the first line should never be indented and that the indents should be 1.25cm.

About the same — 1.18 and 0.49 inches respectively.

 

[Alistair Roberts]

Maybe to clarify "never indented" I presume you mean do NOT use the tab function, but use the paragraph styles so that the first line of a paragraph is indented automatically by 1.25cm ( 1/2 inch)

 

[Jason Byrne]

Maybe to clarify "never indented" I presume you mean do NOT use the tab function, but use the paragraph styles so that the first line of a paragraph is indented automatically by 1.25cm ( 1/2 inch)

What it is to which she's referring here is the very first paragraph of the story, and the first paragraph of the beginning of each chapter thereafter — tragically, these should not be indented whatsoever.

Another beloved style choice sacrificed at the altar of conformity. Oh yeah, and success. Never mind. I'm good.

 

[Karen Gray]

Maybe to clarify "never indented" I presume you mean do NOT use the tab function, but use the paragraph styles so that the first line of a paragraph is indented automatically by 1.25cm ( 1/2 inch)

No I mean the first paragraph should be flush with the margin and all other paragraphs should be indented (not through tabs)

 

[Alistair Roberts]

Yep, ops, got it

 

[Brian Clegg]

In my experience (and I've had quite a lot of publishers) they don't care about indents - I never indent any paragraphs except quote paragraphs - just use a Word style that leaves a break between paragraphs, which is more useful when editing than just having an indent. As long as you use paragraph formatting to do this, rather than blank lines, they can easily change the whole thing for final typesetting.

The only things that seem to be set in concrete are no fancy formatting (particularly no boxes or illustrations in the ms), always use double spaced lines and always have a single space after a full stop.

 

[Alistair Roberts]

That's really odd as I have heard (don't recall exactly were), that they hate a line break between paragraphs?? However, I hate paragraphs that don't have a first line indent, makes reading harder IMHO

 

[Brian Clegg]

Alistair - they hate hard line breaks (i.e. where you actually press carriage return twice). But there is no problem with setting Word to automatically put a space between paragraphs as part of the paragraph formatting. This can be universally changed with a couple of clicks, but makes it easier while editing.

 

[Alistair Roberts]

Good point Brian

 

[Karen Gray]

I am a fan of unindented first paragraph and indented remaining text. But then that's how I learned, so it's just habit now.

 

[Marc Joan]

FWIW, I follow the guidelines given here: http://www.shunn.net/format/
Haven't had any complaints yet....

 

[Carol Rose]

It depends on the publisher. If they don't specify how they want margins or indents done, then I'd suggest choosing something easy on the eyes to read and sticking to it throughout the whole manuscript. I was taught that industry standard, even if not specified, was 1 inch margins all around, Times New Roman or a similar font, double spaced, and indents of 0.5 for the first line in each paragraph, with no additional line breaks between paragraphs. I also use a page break between chapters but that's because both my publishers ask for that. But in the absence of specific guidelines on the publisher's submissions page, I'd say just stick to simple and easy, and you can't go wrong.

 

[Jason Byrne]

It depends on the publisher. If they don't specify how they want margins or indents done, then I'd suggest choosing something easy on the eyes to read and sticking to it throughout the whole manuscript. I was taught that industry standard, even if not specified, was 1 inch margins all around, Times New Roman or a similar font, double spaced, and indents of 0.5 for the first line in each paragraph, with no additional line breaks between paragraphs. I also use a page break between chapters but that's because both my publishers ask for that. But in the absence of specific guidelines on the publisher's submissions page, I'd say just stick to simple and easy, and you can't go wrong.

I follow this, though I leave the preset 0.75" indent, and single-spacing. I'm going to make a copy of my story file, however, and change all of the formatting to industry-standard 0.5" tabs, double-spaced lines, single-spaced periods, etc.

 

[Robinne Weiss]

Ah, this is all well and good, but I get terribly confused when they then ask for you to paste the text into the body of an e-mail, which then gives you very little control over how it looks at the other end (as it's affected, not just by your mail settings, but theirs as well). And nothing ever looks nice in an e-mail. And then they're likely to read it on their phones, which further mucks with formatting...I've read guidelines for formatting an e-mail submission to reduce these problems, but I hate not knowing exactly how my submission's going to look when it arrives.

 

[Jason Byrne]

Yeah, it pretty much removes all formatting — including indents of any kind. I've lamented this as well.

 

[Alistair Roberts]

Agree Robinne, I find the US reference for pasting in an email annoying and not very practical. They complain about bugs or viruses in emails, but, well, haven't they heard of ANTI-virus programs? The rest of the world has.. Sorry Jason

 

[Jason Byrne]

Is that primarily a US thing? Interesting... I wonder why.

 

[Alistair Roberts]

Almost purely US. Everywhere else with very few exceptions, it's a synopsis, 1 page with the first 3 chapters or 50 pages maximum as a file attachment which is surely easier to read and gives you a better chance of them likely it IMHO. Hard to get a real feel from just 10 pages zapped into the body of the email, screaming for formatting!?! lol

 

[Jason Byrne]

Huh.

 

[Nicole Wilson]

Agree Robinne, I find the US reference for pasting in an email annoying and not very practical. They complain about bugs or viruses in emails, but, well, haven't they heard of ANTI-virus programs? The rest of the world has.. Sorry Jason

It may be easier to read, but viruses can't all be detected by anti-virus programs. Viruses these days are multiplying and reproducing very quickly, at a rate that anti-viruses can't keep up with. Anti-virus serves only as a defense, and defense can only block what they know is coming. (Sorry, I work in IT and this is a subject close to my heart.) Hence, they ask for everything pasted in an email to greatly reduce the risk of bringing a virus onto their computer. Besides, if one virus were to slip in, then likely all of the computers at that agency would be down until they could rid themselves of it, and that takes away valuable agenting time!

 

[Marc Joan]

Almost purely US. Everywhere else with very few exceptions, it's a synopsis, 1 page with the first 3 chapters or 50 pages maximum as a file attachment which is surely easier to read and gives you a better chance of them likely it IMHO. Hard to get a real feel from just 10 pages zapped into the body of the email, screaming for formatting!?! lol

I don't know what it's like with agents and book publishers, but with magazines I have found that the UK vs US numbers are rather similar -- which, given the far smaller numbers of markets in the UK, means a far greater proportion of UK magazines are asking for the story to be pasted into the email.

I don't think it is really about viruses. I think it is for speed and convenience -- much easier for the reader to get a quick idea, and make a quick yes or no decision, by continuing down the email -- saves them having to open up a file. It's only a little faster, but if you are getting hundreds of subs a week, every little helps. Of course, if your story is heavily dependent on formatting for effect, you may be disadvantaged, but you still have the cover letter to point this out.

 

[Alistair Roberts]

PS Marc, 2nd spammer just kicked. Odd that it's always 2 per night (my time). I saw, I slew, I cleaned up.

 

[1408]

You know how authors tell aspiring authors that they're going to reach a point where it gets really hard but they're going to keep going and do it anyway? This is it for me. Forget the plot, the first draft and all its followers, it's this whole format business. My braaaiin, it's hurting my brain! But thank you for all your inputs. I'm glad I'm not alone in feeling a little overwhelmed with all this side of it.

 

[Karen Gray]

Thing is, once you get the hang of formatting, it becomes 2nd nature and you just do it without thinking. I actually enjoy faffing about when I'm moving from A4 to 6"x9" book format. I like it looking 'just so' with book header on even pages and chapter title on odd pages. That one almost made me tear my hair out, but now it's a piece of cake to do