Book Club 12 August @ 8 PM BST: Naomi Novik - Spinning Silver

[Jason L.]

Here is the link so that we can all find it quickly:

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[Hannah F]

As I read this again, I'm jotting down questions for discussion - why Naomi did certain things the way she did. To actually write these questions down is such a useful exercise!

 

[Pamela Jo]

Wish I'd thought of the title. I dont want to read the book-just write my own story to it in my head.

 

[Jason L.]

Just finished the book. I hated the last two books so my standards were admittedly low, but this one was good. It was a cracking good story with little of the emotional manipulation of Woolfe and none of the narcissistic bitterness of Stevenson. Quite well done, and I look forward to talking about it.

 

[Hannah F]

Wish I'd thought of the title. I dont want to read the book-just write my own story to it in my head.

Oh, you definitely should read the book.

 

[LJ Beck]

I just finished it this morning. I was loosing hope for a while as it was so depressing, but then, oh then... it started to get really good, and by the end, I really loved it. I am jotting down a few questions as well. Looking forward to hearing what everyone thought!

 

[Hannah F]

Jotted down some questions for discussion (if we want):

• The novel starts with a story for which we have no anchor of relevance (yet). Did that draw you in? Why/why not?
• There's a fair amount of telling in ch 1 - to build up a picture of the village, the Staryk raids, the elongating winter. Did you feel this worldbuilding was necessary for your understanding?
• Miryam ruthlessly demands owed money back. Did you sympathise/empathise? If so, how did the author stir that emotional state in you?
• Ch 2 is also first person POV but a different narrator. Did this throw you or did you adjust easily? Was the character's voice significantly different?
• Did you find Miryam a likeable character? Why/why not? Is the author manipulating you to like/dislike?
• How did your opinion of Miryam affect you when the Staryk started to make demands?
• This is YA. Saleability of YA (and other children's books) depends on a) a familiar brand with a unique twist b) the story aligns with a universal theme important to this age group's (16-21 mainly) psychy . . . So what gives this novel saleability?
• The author used many POVs. Do you think she needed all of these POVs to tell her story?

 

[James Charles]

Jotted down some questions for discussion (if we want):

• The novel starts with a story for which we have no anchor of relevance (yet). Did that draw you in? Why/why not?
• There's a fair amount of telling in ch 1 - to build up a picture of the village, the Staryk raids, the elongating winter. Did you feel this worldbuilding was necessary for your understanding?
• Miryam ruthlessly demands owed money back. Did you sympathise/empathise? If so, how did the author stir that emotional state in you?
• Ch 2 is also first person POV but a different narrator. Did this throw you or did you adjust easily? Was the character's voice significantly different?
• Did you find Miryam a likeable character? Why/why not? Is the author manipulating you to like/dislike?
• How did your opinion of Miryam affect you when the Staryk started to make demands?
• This is YA. Saleability of YA (and other children's books) depends on a) a familiar brand with a unique twist b) the story aligns with a universal theme important to this age group's (16-21 mainly) psychy . . . So what gives this novel saleability?
• The author used many POVs. Do you think she needed all of these POVs to tell her story?

This is great, Hannah. Looking forward to this discussion as this was not my preferred genre (I'm not a kid anymore ).

 

[LJ Beck]

I have a few minor logic questions: (or my lack of understanding the logic)

• How did Miryam turn the silver crown to gold to break the Staryk's chains when she could only turn silver to gold in the Staryk realm?
• The Staryk naming thing - if knowing someone's name gives you power, then why are the Staryk servants so happy to have names given to them by Miryam?
• What happened to Irena and the tsar? Feels like that storyline didn't finish to me?
• Why is gold considered to be the sun? Did I miss something? Or is that a magic thing?
• How does Chernobog weaken the Staryk world causing them to want to eliminate Lithvas? And will eliminating Lithvas kill Chernobog?

A few more story question to add to Hannah's awesome list:

• Were you able to suspend your disbelief throughout? Did it matter if you didn't?
• What did you think of the other two main characters, Wanda and Irena?

I am also looking forward to this discussion, and also hopefully someone to explain my niggling logic questions!

Some interesting comments at the end of this Tor Spotlight article:

Hugo Spotlight: Unweaving Rumpelstiltskin in Naomi Novik's Spinning Silver - Reactor

In the lead-up to the 2019 Hugo Awards, we’re taking time to appreciate this year’s novel and short fiction Finalists, and what makes each of them great. Miryem is the daughter of small town Jewish moneylender who isn’t very good at his job. Her father, while “terrible with money,” is “endlessly...

www.tor.com

 

[Hannah F]

I have a few minor logic questions: (or my lack of understanding the logic)

• How did Miryam turn the silver crown to gold to break the Staryk's chains when she could only turn silver to gold in the Staryk realm?
• The Staryk naming thing - if knowing someone's name gives you power, then why are the Staryk servants so happy to have names given to them by Miryam?
• What happened to Irena and the tsar? Feels like that storyline didn't finish to me?
• Why is gold considered to be the sun? Did I miss something? Or is that a magic thing?
• How does Chernobog weaken the Staryk world causing them to want to eliminate Lithvas? And will eliminating Lithvas kill Chernobog?

A few more story question to add to Hannah's awesome list:

• Were you able to suspend your disbelief throughout? Did it matter if you didn't?
• What did you think of the other two main characters, Wanda and Irena?

I am also looking forward to this discussion, and also hopefully someone to explain my niggling logic questions!

Some interesting comments at the end of this Tor Spotlight article:

Hugo Spotlight: Unweaving Rumpelstiltskin in Naomi Novik's Spinning Silver - Reactor

In the lead-up to the 2019 Hugo Awards, we’re taking time to appreciate this year’s novel and short fiction Finalists, and what makes each of them great. Miryem is the daughter of small town Jewish moneylender who isn’t very good at his job. Her father, while “terrible with money,” is “endlessly...

www.tor.com

My interpretations:

Just as when the Staryk King joined in the Hora and the setting became an outdoor winter one, because the chain was attached to him and he was a link to the Staryk realm, Miryam could turn the silver chain to gold.

In Staryk law/custom, when an individual is given a name by a higher rank, they too are promoted in rank. So when Queen Miryam gave them names, they gained a better place in Staryk heirarchy.

Irena and the Tsar - up to the reader's imagination.

Gold = sun: My interpretation was that, because the sun tends to be drawn as yellow or gold(ish), gold coins captured the sunshine (a magic thing for this story) and helped the place stay cold and winter.

Chernobog is heat. Eating cold (especially Staryk) nourishes him and makes him more powerful (I don't understand how, but I'm prepared to believe that). The Staryk don't want to eliminate Lithvas - that's just collateral damage. Their problem is that last time Chernobog got into their kingdom, he caused their mountain to melt (and some of the Staryk presumably) and left too much heat in their world (I think). To save his people, the Staryk King desperately needs to turn Staryk silver into gold to capture the heat and therefore make his world colder again so it can heal itself.
But gold is also sun (reminds me of "the golden apples of the sun") which Chernobog can't survive in because he is a night demon, so he has to flee the Staryk kingdom.

The only thing that wobbled my suspension of disbelief was that Miryam had to painstakingly change only a maximum of double layers of silver into gold and so had to get the rest out of the big room, but when she went back to save them from Chernobog, she only had to touch the mound and it all turned to gold. However, she did say she had to do it the work so painstakingly carefully in case she omitted the odd silver coin and failed the task. It was a stretch to believe the swiftness of the silver-to-gold mound, but I accept the logic.

 

[Hannah F]

Good fun evening. Looking forward to the next one.

 

[LJ Beck]

My interpretations:

In Staryk law/custom, when an individual is given a name by a higher rank, they too are promoted in rank. So when Queen Miryam gave them names, they gained a better place in Staryk heirarchy.

The only thing that wobbled my suspension of disbelief was that Miryam had to painstakingly change only a maximum of double layers of silver into gold and so had to get the rest out of the big room, but when she went back to save them from Chernobog, she only had to touch the mound and it all turned to gold. However, she did say she had to do it the work so painstakingly carefully in case she omitted the odd silver coin and failed the task. It was a stretch to believe the swiftness of the silver-to-gold mound, but I accept the logic.

Thanks Hannah! I appreciate the explanations! I can get on board with some of it. I will say that these kinds of things do reduce my overall enjoyment of the book. But there's other things I thought were absolutely brilliant, so....

Yeah, I think by the time we got to saving the Staryk realm, my suspension of disbelief was pretty trampled, so I didn't care if it made sense. lol

My one remaining confusion, (this is the last one!) is with the names. I get the lower ranks getting better positions because M gave them names, but what power will the Staryk King lose if his name is revealed, and how does that tie in with the lower rank name logic? He's a king, the highest rank, so it shouldn't matter who knows his name, no? Maybe it's borrowed from Rumpelstiltskin (guess my name, and you're released from your debt) and just something to be accepted?

I will let it go. Let it go...

 

[Hannah F]

Thanks Hannah! I appreciate the explanations! I can get on board with some of it. I will say that these kinds of things do reduce my overall enjoyment of the book. But there's other things I thought were absolutely brilliant, so....

Yeah, I think by the time we got to saving the Staryk realm, my suspension of disbelief was pretty trampled, so I didn't care if it made sense. lol

My one remaining confusion, (this is the last one!) is with the names. I get the lower ranks getting better positions because M gave them names, but what power will the Staryk King lose if his name is revealed, and how does that tie in with the lower rank name logic? He's a king, the highest rank, so it shouldn't matter who knows his name, no? Maybe it's borrowed from Rumpelstiltskin (guess my name, and you're released from your debt) and just something to be accepted?

I will let it go. Let it go...

Yes, I think that was borrowed from Rumpelstiltskin. The Staryk King was able to bind Chernobog (not very well, it has to be said) because he knew Chernobog's name. If Chernobog or some other evil entity discovered the Staryk King's name, they would be able to wield power over him or take his powers away. If he'd given his name to Chernobog, maybe Chernobog could have made him create access to the Staryk Kingdom. As neither, at that point, knew of the mirror way in, the Staryk King was prepared to die rather than give his name and let Chernobog eat his people.