The hardest thing about writing?

[Jennifer Stone]

The hardest for me atm, is this ruddy synopsis, but I've never written one properly before. I think I'm getting the hang of it, bit by bit.

 

[Bethany]

Thanks! @Alistair Roberts now that you have pointed that out tom I have a feeling that most of my characters sound a like. I'll have to check that on the next round of edits.

 

[Damian North]

I personally find that I often make simple spelling mistakes e.g. the instead of they, but when I read it back I am convinced that the word the is a they in my own head. That's why I like to use narrator on word or pages to read back what I've written, that's when small spelling mistakes come screaming out at me.

 

[Richard Sutton]

Figuring out eh "brains work in a different way" thingie can be very daunting, sometimes. The wonderful inspiration that has words pouring out during a draft seems to take off on another tangent entirely during a rewrite, or, in my current case, when a work laid down incomplete needs to be finished. In this case, it's my own brain that is working differently now. Maybe a natural end of book one and beginning of book two? It shouldn;t be that hard, as for now, I;m the only reader who has to like it, but... (here's that ellipses that Carol mentioned...)

 

[Dudley]

Just read this and it shows how little some writers understand the cra

 

[Karen Gray]

Just read this and it shows how little some writers understand the cra

...? Huh? It's not about not understanding, it's about admitting which parts you find hard and working to improve. I'm not really very sure what you mean by this. Care to clarify?

 

[Dudley]

Just read this and it shows how little some writers understand the craft. Voice is non existent? It's inside you?

So taking that as a premise we are all born speaking in either first person third person, passive or active, past or present tense. All of those are different voices in writing. Take a piece of writing and rewrite it from third person past tense to first person present tense and tell yourself it reads the same.

There are whimsical, flowery, Terri Pratchett voices. The voice you choose to write within is part of the craft, not part of your soul.

 

[Jason Byrne]

Just read this and it shows how little some writers understand the craft. Voice is non existent? It's inside you?

So taking that as a premise we are all born speaking in either first person third person, passive or active, past or present tense. All of those are different voices in writing. Take a piece of writing and rewrite it from third person past tense to first person present tense and tell yourself it reads the same.

There are whimsical, flowery, Terri Pratchett voices. The voice you choose to write within is part of the craft, not part of your soul.

Look y'all. The only correct opinion in the universe just arrived.

 

[Karen Gray]

Just read this and it shows how little some writers understand the craft. Voice is non existent? It's inside you?

So taking that as a premise we are all born speaking in either first person third person, passive or active, past or present tense. All of those are different voices in writing. Take a piece of writing and rewrite it from third person past tense to first person present tense and tell yourself it reads the same.

There are whimsical, flowery, Terri Pratchett voices. The voice you choose to write within is part of the craft, not part of your soul.

Oh! You are talking about voice! Right yeah, it doesn't exist as such. Well... it both does... and doesn't.

People go searching for their Voice and it's a pointless venture because the minute they begin to write, that's their "voice." They can develop it and craft it into anything that they wish it to be but if they go looking for it they will never find it. What you are talking about is the tonal value of a piece, not the voice. Though you could argue tatties and spuds I suppose

 

[Karen Gray]

Look y'all. The only correct opinion in the universe just arrived.

I need my big safe thing to hide behind!

 

[Dudley]

Thank you Jason

I speak fluent sarcasm. Bring it on.

Nice use of the American South Voice

 

[Jason Byrne]

 

[Dudley]

Oh! You are talking about voice! Right yeah, it doesn't exist as such. Well... it both does... and doesn't.

People go searching for their Voice and it's a pointless venture because the minute they begin to write, that's their "voice." They can develop it and craft it into anything that they wish it to be but if they go looking for it they will never find it. What you are talking about is the tonal value of a piece, not the voice. Though you could argue tatties and spuds I suppose

Point taken. Next we can discuss clarity. Been doing this too long maybe.

 

[Karen Gray]

Point taken. Next we can discuss clarity. Been doing this too long maybe.

I strongly suggest you either tone down the attitude with regard to the others on this forum or just stop talking. Litopia is not a place for bitchiness. Sure at times we disagree but we are all friends, every last one of us and I for one will not sit about and watch when uncalled for comments are made. No one persons view is better than anyone elses here so either agree to disagree with politeness and dignity... or jog on.

 

[Carol Rose]

Just read this and it shows how little some writers understand the craft. Voice is non existent? It's inside you?

So taking that as a premise we are all born speaking in either first person third person, passive or active, past or present tense. All of those are different voices in writing. Take a piece of writing and rewrite it from third person past tense to first person present tense and tell yourself it reads the same.

Hmmm… interesting how you commented that some writers don't understand their craft, as you've confused tense, point of view, and voice which are not the same things.

Point of view is a particular way of considering a matter. For example, writing in first person means we're writing the story as if we're the character - as if we're the ones telling it. Third person is another POV, not a voice.

In grammar, tense is a category that expresses time reference. Tenses are manifested by the use of specific forms of verbs and their conjugation patterns. Past, present, passive are all tenses, not voices as we're discussing the term voice in this thread.

Voice, as we're discussing it here, is that unique way each person has of putting together words to form sentences. It can't be faked and it can't be taught. It's inherent in us. It's a combination of a writer's use of syntax, diction, punctuation, character development, dialogue, etc.

 

[Katie-Ellen]

Things got a little heated back there : ( I'm with Dudley about having found voice a challenge. Voice is a thing I struggled to 'arrive' at, or perhaps just control or train, writing my first novel. I didn't 'find' it till I'd written it three times, by which time the novel was an altogether different story; it was no longer 'Nemeton'as Stone' but 'The Farthest Reach'. It is another novel in effect. By voice I think I mean pitch and tone, getting that right, and I did have to pay it attention, I did have to craft it. I found what came from the soul could be trusted at times, and could be trusted for the story as a whole, but on the page it could turn mischievous and wreck things on a whim of mis-placed humour.

The other thing that was mildly hellish was the classic thing, maintaining intensity in the middle of the book, which was likely down to lack of planning, and kept me stuck for a while.

 

[Karen Gray]

Things got a little heated back there : ( I'm with Dudley about having found voice a challenge. Voice is a thing I struggled to 'arrive' at, or perhaps just control or train, writing my first novel. I didn't 'find' it till I'd written it three times, by which time the novel was an altogether different story; it was no longer 'Nemeton'as Stone' but 'The Farthest Reach'. It is another novel in effect. By voice I think I mean pitch and tone, getting that right, and I did have to pay it attention, I did have to craft it. I found what came from the soul could be trusted at times, and could be trusted for the story as a whole, but on the page it could turn mischievous and wreck things on a whim of mis-placed humour.

The other thing that was mildly hellish was the classic thing, maintaining intensity in the middle of the book, which was likely down to lack of planning, and kept me stuck for a while.

That's not what Dudley's post was about KTLN. It was about telling us we were all talking nonsense and that the writers in this thread had "little understanding" of their craft. That's his opinion, but he has no right to make claim that anyone else doesn't know what they are doing or is flat our wrong. That's just not cricket i'm afraid. He offended more than a few of us last night. Xx

 

[Carol Rose]

Katie, I do believe an author's voice changes in subtle ways over time as they develop their writing and learn more about various craft aspects. I know mine has. But Dudley said, and I quote, "Just read this and it shows how little some writers understand the craft." That's what we took offense to, especially considering he was dead wrong on what he then went on to instruct us is "voice" as we're discussing it in this thread.

As I explained to him, present, past, active, passive, etc. aren't what we're referring to. Those are tenses, because they have to do with how the verbs in the sentence are conjugated. First person and third person aren't "voice." They are points of view - the character or narrator POV in which the story is written.

But I do understand what you're trying to say. However, that writing from the soul you speak of IS your "voice." That's what's part of you. It's inherent. It really doesn't change all that much. What does change is the mechanics of writing as we each learn more and more. We stop using passive verbs and realize that using active verbs keeps the reader immediately in the story and prevents the distance from the reader that using passive verbs tends to do. We learn how to punctuate a sentence the right way, and we become more adept at using different points of view. But those are mechanical issues. They are separate from that distinct way we each have of speaking - that's the "voice" we're discussing here.

 

[Katie-Ellen]

That's not what Dudley's post was about KTLN. It was about telling us we were all talking nonsense and that the writers in this thread had "little understanding" of their craft. That's his opinion, but he has no right to make claim that anyone else doesn't know what they are doing or is flat our wrong. That's just not cricket i'm afraid. He offended more than a few of us last night. Xx

I defer to your expertise, as always We're a broad church, generally very friendly. There have been one or two very rude people here, one lady who has since vanished was unbelievably obnoxious, I thought, but people were remarkably tolerant. I won't mention any names. I saw what happened, but also felt Dudley did get shot down somewhat, that voice was pretty much a non-consideration when for him it hadn't been.

 

[Carol Rose]

I defer to your expertise, as always We're a broad church, generally very friendly. There have been one or two very rude people here, one lady who has since vanished was unbelievably obnoxious, I thought, but people were remarkably tolerant. I won't mention any names. I saw what happened, but also felt Dudley did get shot down somewhat, that voice was pretty much a non-consideration when for him it hadn't been.

Oh goodness. I'm not an expert at anything. I'm only basing my responses on what I've learned from others.

And yes, the "lady" was unbelievably obnoxious and rude. I may have been tolerant on the surface, but I did report her name-calling to Peter. That was uncalled for.

I'm sorry you felt Dudley was shot down. I realize I came in on the back end of that entire exchange. However, I don't feel giving the community incorrect information while basically calling them ignorant is an effective way to get a point across, so I felt it was necessary for me to inform him that he'd mixed up his terms.

 

[Karen Gray]

Oh goodness. I'm not an expert at anything. I'm only basing my responses on what I've learned from others.

And yes, the "lady" was unbelievably obnoxious and rude. I may have been tolerant on the surface, but I did report her name-calling to Peter. That was uncalled for.

I'm sorry you felt Dudley was shot down. I realize I came in on the back end of that entire exchange. However, I don't feel giving the community incorrect information while basically calling them ignorant is an effective way to get a point across, so I felt it was necessary for me to inform him that he'd mixed up his terms.

I think that's coming back to the original theme in the thread though isn't it? None of us are experts, we never will be. Sure we can make it to the top of our game but we will never know everything, and we will always, always have something new to learn. Even the simple act of us growing older or moving to different areas will change our writing, sometimes subtly, sometimes not so subtly but we are constantly developing

 

[Carol Rose]

I think that's coming back to the original theme in the thread though isn't it? None of us are experts, we never will be. Sure we can make it to the top of our game but we will never know everything, and we will always, always have something new to learn. Even the simple act of us growing older or moving to different areas will change our writing, sometimes subtly, sometimes not so subtly but we are constantly developing

I totally agree.

 

[Alistair Roberts]

Well I was just going to say I disagree about voice not being part of your Soul. Unless you don't think you have a Soul, then it would be correct. The 'voice' you portray comes from your fingers as you write, which is guided by your brain, which surely is a function of your Soul? It may not be technically correct, but Writers are Artists and we are all inspired, and surely that is a function and out-coming of our Soul which as far as I am concerned is connected to the Universe, which supplies all the imagination, inspiration and 'gifts'. Just my opinion of-course, and frankly, my dragon agrees with me.

 

[Carol Rose]

I agree, Alistair. I think writers are born, and that voice is what makes each of us unique. We have editors on here and I'd love to see them chime in because I know they are taught not to change an author's voice, only to help with mechanical issues, or with content issues such as flow, consistency, and character development. I suppose it might be an esoteric thing that's not easily understood, but I think of it as the way a person speaks. If you listen to people, we each have a distinct way of putting sentences together. We use catch phrases, we have our favorite words, and we have a distinct cadence and tone to our voice that is ours alone. It's why you recognize voices on the phone, or when they call to you from across a room or outside. When we write, we also have a distinct voice that is all our own. It may change over time as our writing matures, but it still sets us apart from another author.

 

[Alistair Roberts]

Absolutely agree. It is the 'voice' that makes each writer, or even painter for that matter, distinctive. It's that quality that can not be measured, grouped in any category that gives each stroke of the brush, or written and even spoken word, a distinct flavour. Without it (that 'voice), it would be a technical manual, or a schematic.

 

[Alistair Roberts]

Or to put it simply, the 'voice' is the magic..... or is it the other way around? I seem to be rambling! Oh well, hot dogs, or meat pies, it's all food for thought....

 

[Carol Rose]

Absolutely agree. It is the 'voice' that makes each writer, or even painter for that matter, distinctive. It's that quality that can not be measured, grouped in any category that gives each stroke of the brush, or written and even spoken word, a distinct flavour. Without it (that 'voice), it would be a technical manual, or a schematic.

Yes, exactly. Artists and musicians have their own style as well. It makes them distinct.

 

[Jason Byrne]

I agree, Alistair. I think writers are born, and that voice is what makes each of us unique. We have editors on here and I'd love to see them chime in because I know they are taught not to change an author's voice, only to help with mechanical issues, or with content issues such as flow, consistency, and character development. I suppose it might be an esoteric thing that's not easily understood, but I think of it as the way a person speaks. If you listen to people, we each have a distinct way of putting sentences together. We use catch phrases, we have our favorite words, and we have a distinct cadence and tone to our voice that is ours alone. It's why you recognize voices on the phone, or when they call to you from across a room or outside. When we write, we also have a distinct voice that is all our own. It may change over time as our writing matures, but it still sets us apart from another author.

Excellent. Yes, that's true. Even with only the written word! Where one person might write someone off as quarrelsome not knowing them, another might recognize just from the texture of the words — not just word choice but things like the number of line breaks placed between them — that something completely unrelated is making them have a really bad day. But irrespective of mood, they are all still recognizable as that author's 'voice,' despite being merely text...

 

[Dudley]

Been away for a while, testing the waters and see that people still take stuff personally.

I put out there that the hardest part of writing is finding my voice and someone says voice is nonexistent. That kinda irritates a guy so I say something kind and sensitive like you don't know your craft, which I should have reworded but my inalienable voice is grumpy.

What happened next is what happens on every online forum,

The outrage
The acusations
The obligatpry correction
The backlash
The back peddle

Been on and off at Litopia since day one. Nothing has changed. That's neither good nor bad, but it does make me recall the real hardest part about writing: not taking other people's opinions personally.

 

[Karen Gray]

so I say something kind and sensitive like you don't know your craft,

Problem is, the above statement isn't kind and sensitive.

"in my opinion, voice [insert POV]"
or
"I think voice [insert POV]"
or
"perhaps voice is [insert POV]"

None of those would have riled anyone up because they are opinions, not statements. What you gave was a statement. I doubt anyone said that it didn't exist at all. I know I personally have said that it doesn't exist as such because when you write that is your voice, it's not something you can find. You already have it and it can be shaped and refined any way you like, but you have it right from the start.

If I remember rightly that comment was made several months ago. That's a long time to carry around a grump about it without discussing it further. There was no need for the negativity and snippy statement that you made. I think the response you got wasn't so much a typical forum response, as an appropriate response given the tone of your post.