Showing character descriptions in 3rd Person POV

[CarolMS]

Jason's (@Jason L.) appropriate concern about avoiding resorting to head-hopping in order to show what a character looks like got me to pondering the issue. Like him, I'm concerned about properly handling POV. While head-hopping has never been a problem for me, I do wonder if the way I'm handling such description in my writing is correct--especially because POV is such a challenging aspect of craft--and also wonder how others might do so or think about the issue. What do you folks think? Any advice or thoughts to share?

While I've written in first person, the novel I'm working on is in third person limited and deep, and in chapters or scenes dedicated to one of two POV characters at a time. I never show characters' appearances or demeanors in an all-at-once description and only very rarely through another person's eyes, such as during a conversation or reactive moment. I usually just drop details in here and there so an image builds up in readers' minds as they read on. For example, my main character, Krista, is very tall for a woman (6'2" in her high heels), so people often look up at her, or she's attracted to really tall men who she can feel "smaller than," as women, it seems, are "supposed to be." Another character is aways pushing her glasses up the bridge of her nose, while another is chubby and bumps his belly or butt into things. Krista avoids sunbathing because her Scandinavian skin is fair, freckles and burns easily. She's thin enough to squeeze between restaurant tables set close side-by-side without knocking anything over. A short person has to ask for help to reach something high up. When Krista starts off by kicking her stiletto heels off it tells readers something about her fashion sense and personality. Her mother takes off her apron while preparing the family supper and adjusts her Sunday dress where it stretches across her large bosom, and wears button earrings, even painful ones, while at home having dinner with an abusive, alcoholic husband. There is no end to the small, simple gestures and behaviors that characters can do to show what they look like of hint at their personality. Maybe one character could say to another, with irritation, "Why do you always do that? Pick at me because I like to wear red." Or "Just because you like boring and bland clothes doesn't mean I can't be colorful. Flashy? Hell, yeah!" Etc. Etc. That's my suggestion: drop in details here and there, when the moment fits (not too often or everywhere). No need to resort to head-hopping.

Any thoughts?

 

[James Charles]

Jason's (@Jason L.) appropriate concern about avoiding resorting to head-hopping in order to show what a character looks like got me to pondering the issue. Like him, I'm concerned about properly handling POV. While head-hopping has never been a problem for me, I do wonder if the way I'm handling such description in my writing is correct--especially because POV is such a challenging aspect of craft--and also wonder how others might do so or think about the issue. What do you folks think? Any advice or thoughts to share?

While I've written in first person, the novel I'm working on is in third person limited and deep, and in chapters or scenes dedicated to one of two POV characters at a time. I never show characters' appearances or demeanors in an all-at-once description and only very rarely through another person's eyes, such as during a conversation or reactive moment. I usually just drop details in here and there so an image builds up in readers' minds as they read on. For example, my main character, Krista, is very tall for a woman (6'2" in her high heels), so people often look up at her, or she's attracted to really tall men who she can feel "smaller than," as women, it seems, are "supposed to be." Another character is aways pushing her glasses up the bridge of her nose, while another is chubby and bumps his belly or butt into things. Krista avoids sunbathing because her Scandinavian skin is fair, freckles and burns easily. She's thin enough to squeeze between restaurant tables set close side-by-side without knocking anything over. A short person has to ask for help to reach something high up. When Krista starts off by kicking her stiletto heels off it tells readers something about her fashion sense and personality. Her mother takes off her apron while preparing the family supper and adjusts her Sunday dress where it stretches across her large bosom, and wears button earrings, even painful ones, while at home having dinner with an abusive, alcoholic husband. There is no end to the small, simple gestures and behaviors that characters can do to show what they look like of hint at their personality. Maybe one character could say to another, with irritation, "Why do you always do that? Pick at me because I like to wear red." Or "Just because you like boring and bland clothes doesn't mean I can't be colorful. Flashy? Hell, yeah!" Etc. Etc. That's my suggestion: drop in details here and there, when the moment fits (not too often or everywhere). No need to resort to head-hopping.

Any thoughts?

Yes, I try to intersperse clues as to appearance into the action. The old days of just describing a character are gone such as: She was tall, full-figured, her lips cherry red.

In my current MS (THE HERETIC’S PROTÉGÉ - that's what the Huddle liked) ... Leah swept aside her long, black matted hair, trying to catch a glimpse of her baby... Later Salvaore is mesmurized by her blue eyes. ... So yes, do weave it into action and dialogue...

 

[Jason L.]

The trick is that you can't go too long. Also, what do people really think of what they look like? I have one character in the work I'm finishing up now. He's got red hair and green eyes and freckles. He's 5'7" and in the first scene you don't see that at all because it's in his point of view. I do show him looking up because he's talking to someone 6'4", and I try to describe everybody else through his point of view. Someone else says that his freckles are like constellations, and that's good.

But getting back to whose POV - let's take me, for instance. Are my eyes blue or grey? I say grey, but am indifferent if someone else calls them blue. Am I a dirty blond or mousy brown that's going grey? I say the latter, my husband points out how golden it gets. I am not my own "type" so I see myself as having a dull sort of face, but he apparently thinks I'm attractive enough. I just see...myself. I have no idea if my cheekbones are high or not (I don't think they are) and I a self-conscious that my lips are too thick. But the thing is that the sort of people who would know that straight off also send a message: I am obsessive about my own looks, and have made very concise decisions about what I look like (or have been told by admirers). Most people aren't like that. They are imprecise about their own descriptions, but good about other people's.

Why isn't Leah's hair bound?

 

[CageSage]

Hail or bullets smashed against the window. The mattress fell away. Pella saw the reflection of herself, tall and gangly, hair mussed and dirty, and Deni, petite and blonde, neat and tidy. Not a girl - a young woman. Glass shattered, the vision blew apart.

Twice before in her life Maris had wished she wasn't tall and ungainly. Many times, she'd wished to be smarter rather than button-nosed, or thinner rather than robust. This was not one of those times. She tied her thick, dark hair into a tight knot, rolled her shoulders and neck, and ran onto the field of play with her throat growling out the team song. Today, she was Maris the Monster - flat-nosed, thick-thighed, overbearing - as she'd been labelled since kindergarten.

However, even in deep third person, there are opportunities to describe the POV character. Think of it as a slide rule measure, with fully immersed at one end, and omniscient at the other (for these purposes, omniscient is the God view and always describes objectively). A story in third person can make use of any of the other 'depths' of the scale - at particular places. Where are these places?
Most often seen at the opening of a scene, a setting up place, where either the location, the tone, or the character can be seen from a different point on the scale.
I don't have any books to quote, but I'm sure you've seen them. They're the little tells in places that precede either a scene or sequel, or a gap in the action. More often, it's a setting description, but it's an ideal situation to put a bit about the character, too.

 

[James Charles]

The trick is that you can't go too long. Also, what do people really think of what they look like? I have one character in the work I'm finishing up now. He's got red hair and green eyes and freckles. He's 5'7" and in the first scene you don't see that at all because it's in his point of view. I do show him looking up because he's talking to someone 6'4", and I try to describe everybody else through his point of view. Someone else says that his freckles are like constellations, and that's good.

But getting back to whose POV - let's take me, for instance. Are my eyes blue or grey? I say grey, but am indifferent if someone else calls them blue. Am I a dirty blond or mousy brown that's going grey? I say the latter, my husband points out how golden it gets. I am not my own "type" so I see myself as having a dull sort of face, but he apparently thinks I'm attractive enough. I just see...myself. I have no idea if my cheekbones are high or not (I don't think they are) and I a self-conscious that my lips are too thick. But the thing is that the sort of people who would know that straight off also send a message: I am obsessive about my own looks, and have made very concise decisions about what I look like (or have been told by admirers). Most people aren't like that. They are imprecise about their own descriptions, but good about other people's.

Why isn't Leah's hair bound?

She's giving birth in her bedroom. Her hair wouldn't be bound then. Only married women tied up their hair in a trinzale when oiut in public.

 

[CarolMS]

Yes, I try to intersperse clues as to appearance into the action. The old days of just describing a character are gone such as: She was tall, full-figured, her lips cherry red.

In my current MS (THE HERETIC’S PROTÉGÉ - that's what the Huddle liked) ... Leah swept aside her long, black matted hair, trying to catch a glimpse of her baby... Later Salvaore is mesmurized by her blue eyes. ... So yes, do weave it into action and dialogue...

Yes, I liked the way you did this. But what? No cherry red lips? Whatever will we do??? It's interesting how such things evolve over time, isn't it. Sometimes, once serious passages have become almost comical when read now.

 

[CarolMS]

The trick is that you can't go too long. Also, what do people really think of what they look like? I have one character in the work I'm finishing up now. He's got red hair and green eyes and freckles. He's 5'7" and in the first scene you don't see that at all because it's in his point of view. I do show him looking up because he's talking to someone 6'4", and I try to describe everybody else through his point of view. Someone else says that his freckles are like constellations, and that's good.

But getting back to whose POV - let's take me, for instance. Are my eyes blue or grey? I say grey, but am indifferent if someone else calls them blue. Am I a dirty blond or mousy brown that's going grey? I say the latter, my husband points out how golden it gets. I am not my own "type" so I see myself as having a dull sort of face, but he apparently thinks I'm attractive enough. I just see...myself. I have no idea if my cheekbones are high or not (I don't think they are) and I a self-conscious that my lips are too thick. But the thing is that the sort of people who would know that straight off also send a message: I am obsessive about my own looks, and have made very concise decisions about what I look like (or have been told by admirers). Most people aren't like that. They are imprecise about their own descriptions, but good about other people's.

Why isn't Leah's hair bound?

It's a bit like backstory in a way, isn't it? Filter in just enough when readers need it, and not more, then filter in more later if and when it's needed.

 

[CarolMS]

The trick is that you can't go too long. Also, what do people really think of what they look like? I have one character in the work I'm finishing up now. He's got red hair and green eyes and freckles. He's 5'7" and in the first scene you don't see that at all because it's in his point of view. I do show him looking up because he's talking to someone 6'4", and I try to describe everybody else through his point of view. Someone else says that his freckles are like constellations, and that's good.

But getting back to whose POV - let's take me, for instance. Are my eyes blue or grey? I say grey, but am indifferent if someone else calls them blue. Am I a dirty blond or mousy brown that's going grey? I say the latter, my husband points out how golden it gets. I am not my own "type" so I see myself as having a dull sort of face, but he apparently thinks I'm attractive enough. I just see...myself. I have no idea if my cheekbones are high or not (I don't think they are) and I a self-conscious that my lips are too thick. But the thing is that the sort of people who would know that straight off also send a message: I am obsessive about my own looks, and have made very concise decisions about what I look like (or have been told by admirers). Most people aren't like that. They are imprecise about their own descriptions, but good about other people's.

Why isn't Leah's hair bound?

I think awareness of one's own appearance has traditionally been much more an issue for girls and women than for men. When I was growing up in the 40s, 50s and early 60s, which was a time when women still quite literally tended to depend on marrying a man for any hope of what was perceived as (and generally in reality was) a decent life, from earliest ages, girls learned their success depended on their appearance. When their daddies tell their little girls how pretty they are, that's what the girls are being subconsciously taught. While such distorted values and destructive social norms for women have, particularly since the "pill" made it possible for women to pursue careers never before dreamed of, perhaps somewhat diminished the superficial emphasis on beauty as primary, it's by no means over. Just changed with more options. Interestingly, I think men today often have to deal with such expectations about their appearance in similar ways to women, and that didn't use to be so. At least I'm seeing things this way. It's a complicated aspect of culture. And an often irritating, if not damaging one. And so regarding characterization, I do think it is quite prominent in many women's thinking and behavior. They say beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, and sometimes the beholder is indeed the individual themselves. Women tend to check how they look in the mirror not to admire themselves, but to make sure they're acceptable enough to present themselves, since they still undertand they'll be judged on their appearance when out in the world. It's shitty, but the way it often is. Still.

 

[CarolMS]

However, even in deep third person, there are opportunities to describe the POV character. Think of it as a slide rule measure, with fully immersed at one end, and omniscient at the other (for these purposes, omniscient is the God view and always describes objectively). A story in third person can make use of any of the other 'depths' of the scale - at particular places. Where are these places?
Most often seen at the opening of a scene, a setting up place, where either the location, the tone, or the character can be seen from a different point on the scale.
I don't have any books to quote, but I'm sure you've seen them. They're the little tells in places that precede either a scene or sequel, or a gap in the action. More often, it's a setting description, but it's an ideal situation to put a bit about the character, too.

One of the things I like best about writing in deep or limited third person is its flexibility. It provides the potential to go deep inside a character's experience and so much more.

 

[Hannah F]

I think awareness of one's own appearance has traditionally been much more an issue for girls and women than for men. When I was growing up in the 40s, 50s and early 60s, which was a time when women still quite literally tended to depend on marrying a man for any hope of what was perceived as (and generally in reality was) a decent life, from earliest ages, girls learned their success depended on their appearance. When their daddies tell their little girls how pretty they are, that's what the girls are being subconsciously taught. While such distorted values and destructive social norms for women have, particularly since the "pill" made it possible for women to pursue careers never before dreamed of, perhaps somewhat diminished the superficial emphasis on beauty as primary, it's by no means over. Just changed with more options. Interestingly, I think men today often have to deal with such expectations about their appearance in similar ways to women, and that didn't use to be so. At least I'm seeing things this way. It's a complicated aspect of culture. And an often irritating, if not damaging one. And so regarding characterization, I do think it is quite prominent in many women's thinking and behavior. They say beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, and sometimes the beholder is indeed the individual themselves. Women tend to check how they look in the mirror not to admire themselves, but to make sure they're acceptable enough to present themselves, since they still undertand they'll be judged on their appearance when out in the world. It's shitty, but the way it often is. Still.

And that's the great thing about Zoom preview. You can check your appearance before you appear to anyone else. (Yes, I'm that vain.)

 

[LJ Beck]

I think in general, we need less physical descriptions than we might think.

I heard an agent talk once on exposition and they gave a great tip. "Only give the reader information on a need-to-know basis." I think this can be used for all manner of description, including appearance, age, gender, etc.

I watched Lee Child's BBC Maestro class and in one lesson he talked about why he can keep writing Jack Reacher books, and people will still buy them. Why Jack Reacher isn't boring. Child said that he doesn't describe the character too narrowly, less is more. He leaves space for the reader's imagination. Reacher has 27 books, and Child said that there's only a handful that give physical descriptions, and it's never much. Reacher does, however, have a very strong identity. It's just not based on physical descriptions.

So, some questions I'm asking myself as I write any physical descriptions in my current story... is it needed? Is there something more interesting about the character to define them by? What does that physical description say about that character at that time?

How you do it is one thing, but how much you need it is another.

 

[Hannah F]

Sherlock Holmes: Have a look and see if you can find any self-description by Dr Watson. But we all know what he looks like, and each of us has a different knowledge of what he looks like. Our imagination fills in what we cannot see.

 

[CarolMS]

Sherlock Holmes: Have a look and see if you can find any self-description by Dr Watson. But we all know what he looks like, and each of us has a different knowledge of what he looks like. Our imagination fills in what we cannot see.

Right. And the choice of when and if to filter in description also has to do with whether or not the particular details have to do with some essential element of the character or story that readers need to clearly grasp, as well as when they need to do so. In that aspect, it's like backstory, needing to be added in at the time it's important for readers to have the information. It depends on the story. Sometimes it matters, sometimes it can just be left to the reader's imagination, and sometimes doesn't matter at all.

 

[James Charles]

Right. And the choice of when and if to filter in description also has to do with whether or not the particular details have to do with some essential element of the character or story that readers need to clearly grasp, as well as when they need to do so. In that aspect, it's like backstory, needing to be added in at the time it's important for readers to have the information. It depends on the story. Sometimes it matters, sometimes it can just be left to the reader's imagination, and sometimes doesn't matter at all.

Yet, I'm reading The House of Fortune, by Jessie Burton, her sequal to the best-seller The Miniaturist, and it's in third person, two POVs by sections (the aunt and the neice), and at times she just describes someone or something in more than once sentence. I do that and everyone yells: "Info-dumping...NO!"

 

[LJ Beck]

Yet, I'm reading The House of Fortune, by Jessie Burton, her sequal to the best-seller The Miniaturist, and it's in third person, two POVs by sections (the aunt and the neice), and at times she just describes someone or something in more than once sentence. I do that and everyone yells: "Info-dumping...NO!"

Are you enjoying her descriptions? Or do they feel like info dumps to you?

I'm listening to a book now, "The Long Way to a Small Angry Planet" by Becky Chambers, and I am enjoying the book, but not the info dumps. I literally phased out during one particularly long one that was not on a need-to-know basis. It was more, listen to this cool thing I came up with that we will be using later. Anyway, cool chars, cool story, but too heavy on the dumps for me.

Guess everyone has different limits.

 

[Dan Payne]

I rarely describe my POV characters. If they have notable characteristics I might have other characters respond/react to those, but as was mentioned above, it's need-to-know. People don't look at themselves in the mirror and describe themselves. I like to let the reader fill in the blanks and I leave a lot of blanks.

Also, anything you write in a description, you need to keep track of. Because you can bet somebody six years and four novels down the line is going to pipe up with 'but her hair was red!'

 

[CarolMS]

Are you enjoying her descriptions? Or do they feel like info dumps to you?

I'm listening to a book now, "The Long Way to a Small Angry Planet" by Becky Chambers, and I am enjoying the book, but not the info dumps. I literally phased out during one particularly long one that was not on a need-to-know basis. It was more, listen to this cool thing I came up with that we will be using later. Anyway, cool chars, cool story, but too heavy on the dumps for me.

Guess everyone has different limits.

It does so much depend on personal tastes, and what is enjoyed or preferable has evolved tremendously over time. Also, what genre the book is, as well as the achieved level of craft by a particular writer can also be factors. A book having been published doesn't necessarily mean the quality of its craft is up to par;, there are plenty of examples of top-selling novels that are really poorly written, a testament, I think, to that adage "story trumps all." There is nothing like a great story, or a gifted storyteller, is there? And when it comes to critiques, needless to say, all the advice is inevitably subjective. What is "right" for one writer, or genre, may not be correct for another, which is something I think people need to keep in mind more than they often do.

 

[Robinne Weiss]

I don't do much describing of characters in my stories. As a reader I hate the sentences like: She swept her long shiny auburn hair into a high ponytail so the tips of the strands brushed the collar of her lacy pink [insert designer name brand] blouse. I want to say to the author--fine, you found an action the character could do that gave you an excuse to describe her, but was that action important or was it just an excuse? And do I really need to know that many details?

Recently I've become more sensitive (in my own writing) to times when I use a visual description to convey emotion in my POV character. But the POV character doesn't pay attention to their unconscious gestures, they can't see that their eyes are red from crying, etc. I'm working on getting better at describing the internal feeling or thoughts instead, so my POV characters notice the headache that signals stress rather than the external tics that indicate to others they are stressed, or they notice the scratchy eyes from crying instead of the smeared mascara, or whatever.

 

[CarolMS]

Good points, @Robinne Weiss. I think you've singled out several of the key things to watch out for when writing description: (1) overwriting, and (2) the need to be sure the described behavior or even description of some visual aspect of the person is essential to the story, whether to make sense of the current or forthcoming plot action or to further understanding of who the character is in some requisite way. Such things carry different weight depending upon the genres and whether or not the story is focused on an action plot or is more character-driven with an emphasis on psychological and emotional elements as the central to the story. Some types of novels require more subtle, complex characterization than others because what is internal to the characters is more central to the plot than what is external.

And I know what you mean about needing to avoid description that can't work in the character's POV, which is one of the reasons I prefer the flexibility and broader perspectives of third person POV, particularly limited and deep third, to the more restricted first person viewpoint. (By the way, in July, Tiffany Yates Martin is going to be doing a webinar on using deep third POV, in case anyone is interested to know about it. I just signed up, having enjoyed previous webinars by her. It's only $25; sign up on the janefriedman.com website.)

 

[CarolMS]

Yet, I'm reading The House of Fortune, by Jessie Burton, her sequal to the best-seller The Miniaturist, and it's in third person, two POVs by sections (the aunt and the neice), and at times she just describes someone or something in more than once sentence. I do that and everyone yells: "Info-dumping...NO!"

It seems like the more we read, the more we discover the many different ways writers have approached these craft issues. I find also, in my case anyway, that the more I read--books on the craft of writing fiction as well as novels--the more I still need to learn. Dear God. When I started writing my novel, around 2012, I had no idea how hard it is to write a novel, particularly one that is structurally complex (nonlinear, with two POVs and for a while, parallel plot lines). I had my full story in mind--even the last line, which is still the one I'm using--and just started writing to it. Nevertheless, my lack of foundarional knowledge made me vulnerable to detours and getting lost, and it was quite a while before I grasped that not all well-meaning advice is correct and should be followed. Some of it is dead wrong, or at least needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Just focus on what your readers need to know and when they need to know it and leave the rest out. Trust yourself; it's your story. And it's a good one!

 

[Hannah F]

And, of course, apart from punctuation (to a point) and spelling, there are no rules. Just guidance. As we improve our skill, we can trust ourselves to only use the words we need. Then the story will be our story in our voice. If it's compelling enough, the reader will join us for the ride whether or not we convey that her hair was red.

 

[CarolMS]

And, of course, apart from punctuation (to a point) and spelling, there are no rules. Just guidance. As we improve our skill, we can trust ourselves to only use the words we need. Then the story will be our story in our voice. If it's compelling enough, the reader will join us for the ride whether or not we convey that her hair was red.

There's that saying, "rules are made to be broken." Writers are even breaking the rules of spelling and punctuation these days. I still can't get used to reading books with dialogue written with no punctuation to distinguish it from narrative exposition, or written in italics, etc.. It frankly irritates me, seems gimmicky. I'm all for genuinely creative experimental writing, but that ain't it. Story is indeed the heart and soul of writing, and readers will jump aboard for the ride if the story draws them in. And for many, it gets even better if they like the vehicle--the prose, including a writer's voice and style.