Question: Best practices for critique partners/beta readers

[Mel L]

Getting ready to put the latest draft of my novel, Up Dog, into the Writing Lab.
A couple of questions:
1. As readers/crit partners, do you prefer to get everything at once? (Full MS = 70 K words). Or chapter by chapter?
2. Do you want/need a full package including blurb/synopsis or are you happy to discover the story as you go?
3. As writers, is it better to recruit a small group and take it private or keep it public and let people drop in and out depending on their engagement level?
Just wondering what others' experiences have been -- no expectations to actually read anything!

 

[Sedayne]

Getting ready to put the latest draft of my novel, Up Dog, into the Writing Lab.
A couple of questions:
1. As readers/crit partners, do you prefer to get everything at once? (Full MS = 70 K words). Or chapter by chapter?
2. Do you want/need a full package including blurb/synopsis or are you happy to discover the story as you go?
3. As writers, is it better to recruit a small group and take it private or keep it public and let people drop in and out depending on their engagement level?
Just wondering what others' experiences have been -- no expectations to actually read anything!

Good questions. I'm fairly new to this critiquing business (though not new to writing), and I wonder the same thing.

For me, I don't think it matters if it's one chapter or the whole thing, as long as readers don't feel obliged to read on if they can't afford the time or it's not their thing. I'm less likely to read on if it's a genre I'm not into.

If you want an opinion on the synopsis and blurb, you should post them. That's what we're all here for.

You could post synopsis and blurb first to get us all hooked, then we'll be dying to read the MS.

I'm interested to know what others think about this.
And I'm interested to see what Up Dog is all about x

 

[Sedayne]

@Mel L or you could put up the first 3 chapters and ask for volunteers to beta-read the whole thing. Bearing in mind we might ask you to return the favour.

 

[Vagabond Heart]

For me, I’d want the whole thing as a Beta reader. I wouldn’t able to give accurate feedback on things like flow, plot holes, and character arcs with only a sample.

Also, TYM suggests reading through the whole MS once first, then going back in, to start making notes on the second read-through. So that’s what I do now.

And I, personally, prefer it without the blurb and synopsis, as then I’m not influenced by them as I start to read.

And I would suggest getting a small but representative group together, then making the thread private before posting the full MS.

 

[LJ Beck]

I'm with @Vagabond Heart. Although I do make comments first read through to capture initial reactions, then make a second pass on the notes after the read. I am too slow a reader to read the whole thing twice. Doh. Bev is a complete pro!

Full MS.

Blurb sure, because it should just tease/hook but not give anything away. Synopsis no. Unless you want feedback on it. I'd do the feedback on a synopsis after the read through if I was doing a full MS.

Small private group. For sure. People who know your genre, and you have liked their feedback for others' stuff. And you like their writing (as they may ask for a return favour.)

In terms of asking, if you don't already know who you'd like to ask, I think posting a general "beta readers on a full MS wanted" thread with the blurb is a good, and then you can pick and choose from whomever offers. Personally, I keep it pretty limited to how many writers beta read, as writers tend to give a lot of notes, and too many notes from too many writers can be pretty overwhelming. lol 3 writers at a time is my personal limit. I also ask non-writers to beta read, ones I know read and know my genre. And then there's the inevitable family member or dear friend who wants to read. Up to 10 beta readers is my preference. Then you get a good cross section.

Oh and good luck with it Mel, it's always a bit of a harrowing experience. And congrats for completing your MS! Thst is huge!

 

[Nikky Lee]

I would also recommend giving your beta readers a set of questions to answer once they finish reading. That can help get you more pointed feedback into various aspects of the story they may not necessarily think to dwell on, as well as giving you a better idea of how they interpreted the story, felt about the characters etc.

For anyone interested, here are some questions I've used at various points that have been useful in generating more/additional feedback:

• Did the story hold your interest from the very beginning? If not, why not?
• At what point were you like, ‘Ah, now the story’s really begun’?
• Was there enough emotional pull to draw you in?
• Where did you stop reading when you first opened the manuscript?
• What characters were you invested in? Were they any that you weren’t? Why not?
• Did you find yourself skimming in any places or skipping to ‘get to the good part’? If so, what chapters?
• Did your feel any scene/chapter(s) dragged on too long?
• Which setting was clearest in the books/what setting do you remember best?
• Did any of the world building elements/terms trip you up or remain unclear?
• Which setting was clearest in the books/what setting do you remember best?
• Did any of the world building elements/terms trip you up or remain unclear?
• Who was your favourite character?Iriana.
• Who was your favourite character?
• Who was your least favourite/got on your nerves character?
• Is the dialogue distinct enough for each character? i.e. did you find any characters sounding too similar to one another?
• Is there enough downtime between intense scenes to allow it to build to the next?
• If you had to pick a character to get rid of, who would you axe?
• What was the last book you read before this one? What did you think of it? (It sometimes helps to know what betas have previous read as it can sometimes influence how they recieve your story)
• Finish this sentence: I kept reading because… Or if you stopped/DNFed: I stopped reading because…
• Anything else you'd like/want to mention? (Leaves the door open for them to bring up anything not covered in the questions).

 

[Sedayne]

@Nikky Lee
If you had to pick a character to get rid of, who would you axe?
Ouch! Of all your questions, I think that's the bravest. Just got to hope they don't pick the MC.

 

[Josephine]

I would also recommend giving your beta readers a set of questions to answer once they finish reading. That can help get you more pointed feedback into various aspects of the story they may not necessarily think to dwell on, as well as giving you a better idea of how they interpreted the story, felt about the characters etc.

For anyone interested, here are some questions I've used at various points that have been useful in generating more/additional feedback:

• Did the story hold your interest from the very beginning? If not, why not?
• At what point were you like, ‘Ah, now the story’s really begun’?
• Was there enough emotional pull to draw you in?
• Where did you stop reading when you first opened the manuscript?
• What characters were you invested in? Were they any that you weren’t? Why not?
• Did you find yourself skimming in any places or skipping to ‘get to the good part’? If so, what chapters?
• Did your feel any scene/chapter(s) dragged on too long?
• Which setting was clearest in the books/what setting do you remember best?
• Did any of the world building elements/terms trip you up or remain unclear?
• Which setting was clearest in the books/what setting do you remember best?
• Did any of the world building elements/terms trip you up or remain unclear?
• Who was your favourite character?Iriana.
• Who was your favourite character?
• Who was your least favourite/got on your nerves character?
• Is the dialogue distinct enough for each character? i.e. did you find any characters sounding too similar to one another?
• Is there enough downtime between intense scenes to allow it to build to the next?
• If you had to pick a character to get rid of, who would you axe?
• What was the last book you read before this one? What did you think of it? (It sometimes helps to know what betas have previous read as it can sometimes influence how they recieve your story)
• Finish this sentence: I kept reading because… Or if you stopped/DNFed: I stopped reading because…
• Anything else you'd like/want to mention? (Leaves the door open for them to bring up anything not covered in the questions).

This is a super helpful list! Wondering if it'd be possible to pin it somewhere? And/or maybe for people to add to?

 

[Mel L]

Good questions. I'm fairly new to this critiquing business (though not new to writing), and I wonder the same thing.

For me, I don't think it matters if it's one chapter or the whole thing, as long as readers don't feel obliged to read on if they can't afford the time or it's not their thing. I'm less likely to read on if it's a genre I'm not into.

If you want an opinion on the synopsis and blurb, you should post them. That's what we're all here for.

You could post synopsis and blurb first to get us all hooked, then we'll be dying to read the MS.

I'm interested to know what others think about this.
And I'm interested to see what Up Dog is all about x

Thanks Sedayne! So glad I posted this. I've been through the lab a couple of times (and will never forget the kind souls who slogged their way through my early draft) but each time feels like a whole new world. Hopefully I'll be able get a few readers on board!

 

[Mel L]

For me, I’d want the whole thing as a Beta reader. I wouldn’t able to give accurate feedback on things like flow, plot holes, and character arcs with only a sample.

Also, TYM suggests reading through the whole MS once first, then going back in, to start making notes on the second read-through. So that’s what I do now.

And I, personally, prefer it without the blurb and synopsis, as then I’m not influenced by them as I start to read.

And I would suggest getting a small but representative group together, then making the thread private before posting the full MS.

Thanks, Bev! This really helps (and I agree about the synopsis, as you then approach it with a reader's eyes).

 

[Mel L]

I'm with @Vagabond Heart. Although I do make comments first read through to capture initial reactions, then make a second pass on the notes after the read. I am too slow a reader to read the whole thing twice. Doh. Bev is a complete pro!

Full MS.

Blurb sure, because it should just tease/hook but not give anything away. Synopsis no. Unless you want feedback on it. I'd do the feedback on a synopsis after the read through if I was doing a full MS.

Small private group. For sure. People who know your genre, and you have liked their feedback for others' stuff. And you like their writing (as they may ask for a return favour.)

In terms of asking, if you don't already know who you'd like to ask, I think posting a general "beta readers on a full MS wanted" thread with the blurb is a good, and then you can pick and choose from whomever offers. Personally, I keep it pretty limited to how many writers beta read, as writers tend to give a lot of notes, and too many notes from too many writers can be pretty overwhelming. lol 3 writers at a time is my personal limit. I also ask non-writers to beta read, ones I know read and know my genre. And then there's the inevitable family member or dear friend who wants to read. Up to 10 beta readers is my preference. Then you get a good cross section.

Oh and good luck with it Mel, it's always a bit of a harrowing experience. And congrats for completing your MS! Thst is huge!

Wow, this is really helpful, Lyse! I hadn't thought about limiting it to just 3 writers, as I've not been able to find any non-writer betas (which I really do need). But your point is really well taken. Too many notes can be really hard to process, especially if they're conflicting. And thanks for the encouragement -- it is always harrowing and it has taken me far too long but I do feel this time I'm getting closer!

 

[Mel L]

I would also recommend giving your beta readers a set of questions to answer once they finish reading. That can help get you more pointed feedback into various aspects of the story they may not necessarily think to dwell on, as well as giving you a better idea of how they interpreted the story, felt about the characters etc.

For anyone interested, here are some questions I've used at various points that have been useful in generating more/additional feedback:

• Did the story hold your interest from the very beginning? If not, why not?
• At what point were you like, ‘Ah, now the story’s really begun’?
• Was there enough emotional pull to draw you in?
• Where did you stop reading when you first opened the manuscript?
• What characters were you invested in? Were they any that you weren’t? Why not?
• Did you find yourself skimming in any places or skipping to ‘get to the good part’? If so, what chapters?
• Did your feel any scene/chapter(s) dragged on too long?
• Which setting was clearest in the books/what setting do you remember best?
• Did any of the world building elements/terms trip you up or remain unclear?
• Which setting was clearest in the books/what setting do you remember best?
• Did any of the world building elements/terms trip you up or remain unclear?
• Who was your favourite character?Iriana.
• Who was your favourite character?
• Who was your least favourite/got on your nerves character?
• Is the dialogue distinct enough for each character? i.e. did you find any characters sounding too similar to one another?
• Is there enough downtime between intense scenes to allow it to build to the next?
• If you had to pick a character to get rid of, who would you axe?
• What was the last book you read before this one? What did you think of it? (It sometimes helps to know what betas have previous read as it can sometimes influence how they recieve your story)
• Finish this sentence: I kept reading because… Or if you stopped/DNFed: I stopped reading because…
• Anything else you'd like/want to mention? (Leaves the door open for them to bring up anything not covered in the questions).

Wonderful advice, and that list is great! Thanks a million, Nikky.

 

[Nikky Lee]

@Nikky Lee
If you had to pick a character to get rid of, who would you axe?
Ouch! Of all your questions, I think that's the bravest. Just got to hope they don't pick the MC.

Haha, this actually happened in my first book. It wasn't the two MCs but to one of the major supporting characters. I had multiple betas all name this character as deserving the chop. To me this signalled that I hadn't developed their character enough to make readers care/be interested in them/their story. Because the character was quite important to the story, I went back and reworked all the scenes with them in it and it made a huge difference.

Another time I've asked this question, I had people name a minor side character, and I took it as a good sign that all my major characters were pulling their weight.

 

[Peyton Stafford]

I am not someone who likes lists and formulae. Post the story and let those of us whom it grabs get back to you. Promise. I will not bite.

 

[RK Wallis]

Oh and good luck with it Mel, it's always a bit of a harrowing experience. And congrats for completing your MS! Thst is huge!

Totally this xx

You've had brill advice from everyone. It's so good to hear reader preferences. My small recommendation would add - be strategic. This is your brain baby. Protect it as much as possible. It's still early days. Keep your circle of readers small until you're ready to go wide, otherwise you're in danger of your writing sounding like it's written by committee.

Maybe ask for volunteers first, then turn your thread private and go from there with your volunteers.

 

[E G Logan]

And I would suggest getting a small but representative group together, then making the thread private before posting the full MS.

I agree with that.

 

[Robinne Weiss]

I would also recommend giving your beta readers a set of questions to answer once they finish reading. That can help get you more pointed feedback into various aspects of the story they may not necessarily think to dwell on, as well as giving you a better idea of how they interpreted the story, felt about the characters etc.

For anyone interested, here are some questions I've used at various points that have been useful in generating more/additional feedback:

• Did the story hold your interest from the very beginning? If not, why not?
• At what point were you like, ‘Ah, now the story’s really begun’?
• Was there enough emotional pull to draw you in?
• Where did you stop reading when you first opened the manuscript?
• What characters were you invested in? Were they any that you weren’t? Why not?
• Did you find yourself skimming in any places or skipping to ‘get to the good part’? If so, what chapters?
• Did your feel any scene/chapter(s) dragged on too long?
• Which setting was clearest in the books/what setting do you remember best?
• Did any of the world building elements/terms trip you up or remain unclear?
• Which setting was clearest in the books/what setting do you remember best?
• Did any of the world building elements/terms trip you up or remain unclear?
• Who was your favourite character?Iriana.
• Who was your favourite character?
• Who was your least favourite/got on your nerves character?
• Is the dialogue distinct enough for each character? i.e. did you find any characters sounding too similar to one another?
• Is there enough downtime between intense scenes to allow it to build to the next?
• If you had to pick a character to get rid of, who would you axe?
• What was the last book you read before this one? What did you think of it? (It sometimes helps to know what betas have previous read as it can sometimes influence how they recieve your story)
• Finish this sentence: I kept reading because… Or if you stopped/DNFed: I stopped reading because…
• Anything else you'd like/want to mention? (Leaves the door open for them to bring up anything not covered in the questions).

I agree with Nikki--I always provide a list of questions, and I use a lot of these same questions, plus some specific ones for my young readers regarding vocabulary, readability, and whether they think their friends would like the book. Also, if the book is the second or third in a series, I ask whether there was enough (or too much) background information about previous books woven in for them to understand, if they haven't read previous books.

I would encourage you to seek beta readers who aren't writers, in addition to asking on here--it's really helpful to get reader responses from your target market, and particularly parts of your target market who don't spend all day and night obsessing over whether they've used passive sentences or too many adverbs.

 

[LJ Beck]

I have to be honest, I'm not big on answering a long list of questions set out for me. I find I usually cover the main questions anyway in a bit of a more natural way for myself, either in page notes or general notes. But I do think it's good for some readers. I can see it would be good for younger readers, for sure.

 

[Mel L]

Totally this xx

You've had brill advice from everyone. It's so good to hear reader preferences. My small recommendation would add - be strategic. This is your brain baby. Protect it as much as possible. It's still early days. Keep your circle of readers small until you're ready to go wide, otherwise you're in danger of your writing sounding like it's written by committee.

Maybe ask for volunteers first, then turn your thread private and go from there with your volunteers.

Good advice, RK! I especially like your idea of 'protecting the brain baby' as it separates the story from the writer. Sometimes we need to inflict tough medicine to protect our kids, but it's for their own good!